NFA Trust

[JediSkipdogg]

I don't know much about trusts in the legal since but....

Can't the laws change and make a trust invalid? Couldn't next year Kasich get something passed in Ohio that may be minor but would make all current NFA trusts invalid? At which point everyone with a weapon in the trust would be an automatic felon?

On the other forum someone posted about someone mentioned in like the last 75 years trust laws have changed 3 or 4 times.

[FormerNavy]

After a few calls to the office to confirm that the trust had filed a tax return the previous year the agents thanked him for his time and apologized for the mix up.

Trusts have to file tax returns?? My trust is mainly for the disposition of property should something happen to both myself and my wife - I never heard anything about tax returns. Maybe it's just if your trust has income?

[djthomas]

I don't know much about trusts in the legal since but....

Can't the laws change and make a trust invalid? Couldn't next year Kasich get something passed in Ohio that may be minor but would make all current NFA trusts invalid? At which point everyone with a weapon in the trust would be an automatic felon?

That would be tough. I'm sure they could, but I doubt they would because that would involve upsetting a lot more than just NFA trusts. The link Dan gave has a good discussion going about trusts being invalidated by law. Of course they could probably pass a law stating that firearms owned by a trust may only be held as investments and not used. The only reason they'd probably do that is if they felt the CLEO certification was being skirted too much. Otherwise they'd just outlaw NFA items in the state and be done with it.

What I'm more concerned about is trusts that don't account for everything, like in my grandmother's case it didn't account for my grandfather passing away. In her situation the trust wasn't really designed to outlast just one of them because it never occurred to them at the time. There were provisions for both of them passing, but not just one. It was a technical defect with the trust itself, not the underlying law establishing trusts.

But more to your point, if through some process whether by wholesale invalidation of NFA trusts or an individual trust being found invalid, if the trust ceases to exist than whomever has physical control of the item is committing illegal possession.

[FormerNavy]

A decent discussion on The Firing Line website on "Self Done" trusts vs. "lawyer=done" trusts.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420850" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, the guy that said in that thread that there is no difference between people doing their own trusts and a FFL dealer doing one for you is dead wrong. It's called practicing law without a license, and can get you in deep doo-doo with the Ohio Supreme Court.

[ORSalesRep]

I would spend a few bucks to have an attorney draw up the paperwork. At least then I've got some support if there turn out to be issues with the trust later on.

A few bucks to have an attorney draw up a Trust my behind!!! Unless, you can recommend someone in NE Ohio. I don't have any problem paying an attorney and would love it if you can recommend someone that is reasonably priced, but the one that I spoke with today, told me that it would take 5 minutes on the phone with me to get it together and then it would be finally reviewed by another attorney. She wanted $600.00 for this and that is excessive!

[djthomas]

Trusts have to file tax returns?? My trust is mainly for the disposition of property should something happen to both myself and my wife - I never heard anything about tax returns. Maybe it's just if your trust has income?

All I know is that in his case the agents checked the office. Maybe it was just part of the show. I don't even know if his trust did file tax returns, I'll have to ask him. Wouldn't be the first time a government employee has lied or implied something in the hopes that the suspect will say something incriminating.

Do you have more than one trustee? In his case he, his wife, and his adult children were all trustees. That might change things a bit.

A few bucks to have an attorney draw up a Trust my behind!!! Unless, you can recommend someone in NE Ohio. I don't have any problem paying an attorney and would love it if you can recommend someone that is reasonably priced, but the one that I spoke with today, told me that it would take 5 minutes on the phone with me to get it together and then it would be finally reviewed by another attorney. She wanted $600.00 for this and that is excessive!

I guess "a few bucks" is relative when you're willing to pay a $200 tax on each item you buy. NFA items aren't exactly cheap either. You only have to establish the trust once. I don't personally have a trust but $600 does seem a bit high. I mentioned a trust to an attorney friend of mine once and he said $300-$500 was his ball park depending on what I wanted to do.

[ORSalesRep]

BTW, the guy that said in that thread that there is no difference between people doing their own trusts and a FFL dealer doing one for you is dead wrong. It's called practicing law without a license, and can get you in deep doo-doo with the Ohio Supreme Court.

Not arguing your point here, I'm just confused. What is the difference then if a non-attorney represents himself in court or a individual uses Quicken to create a Will or a Trust? Are you saying that the difference is that in both cases they would be acting on their own behalf whereas the dealer is creating a Trust for another person?

[djthomas]

Not arguing your point here, I'm just confused. What is the difference then if a non-attorney represents himself in court or a individual uses Quicken to create a Will or a Trust? Are you saying that the difference is that in both cases they would be acting on their own behalf whereas the dealer is creating a Trust for another person?

I realize you addressed your question to FormerNavy, but I'm reading the forum he linked as well. I think the issue comes down to a matter of who prepares and reviews the documents. Quicken specifically tells you to have your documents reviewed by an attorney licensed to practice in your state. In essence Quicken is just a template and you are told to take it to a lawyer. Whether or not you do is your discretion.

On the other hand if the dealer gives you the document to fill in the blanks and says or implies that's all you need, then he is practicing law. It might be a different story if the dealer gave you the forms and then told you to take it to your lawyer to have everything reviewed. This would be a great time for someone like Sean to drop in and enlighten us on exactly what constitutes practicing law!

[dan dan the XD40 man]

lol, the last few quotes have my name on the bubble but arent things that I said.

[dan dan the XD40 man]

Hey, you're comfortable with your arrangement so more power to you. All I'm saying is that if I were to get into NFA items I would spend a few bucks to have an attorney draw up the paperwork. At least then I've got some support if there turn out to be issues with the trust later on.

Upon reading my reply to you, it was a bit persnickety. Sorry about that.

I'm comfortable enough with my trust to have a few cheaper items in it. However, if I were ordering up a 15 thousand dollar AK47, I'd wisely pay the 600 or so dollars to have a quality lawyer draft me a solid trust. It would be silly not to.

[FormerNavy]

BTW, the guy that said in that thread that there is no difference between people doing their own trusts and a FFL dealer doing one for you is dead wrong. It's called practicing law without a license, and can get you in deep doo-doo with the Ohio Supreme Court.

Not arguing your point here, I'm just confused. What is the difference then if a non-attorney represents himself in court or a individual uses Quicken to create a Will or a Trust? Are you saying that the difference is that in both cases they would be acting on their own behalf whereas the dealer is creating a Trust for another person?

That's exactly the difference. You can do stuff for yourself all day long, but as soon as you cross over into doing stuff for others, that's UPL. In the thread on the other forum, one person commented that his dealer setup his NFA trust for him, then another person commented that was UPL, then a third person said the second person's comments were nonsense and it was no different than him doing it himself - but it is different. (UPL = Unauthorized Practice of Law)

[djthomas]

Upon reading my reply to you, it was a bit persnickety. Sorry about that.

No problem, at least I was not the one who quoted you making my points

I'm comfortable enough with my trust to have a few cheaper items in it. However, if I were ordering up a 15 thousand dollar AK47, I'd wisely pay the 600 or so dollars to have a quality lawyer draft me a solid trust. It would be silly not to.

For sure, although I thought it was interesting in the thread you referenced where a few people were saying that if you're into full auto things you might be better skipping a trust because it would be too risky. I'm not sure I follow that one completely but I think it had to do more with someone taking your stuff through a defective trust than getting in trouble with the ATF.

For someone such as yourself though where getting the CLEO signature would be darn near impossible it comes down to being able to own or not. I could get the CLEO signature, so if I ever get the itch to NFA I might have to start a separate thread on the pros and cons of owning the items individually versus corporately.

[willbird]

When you get into the $600 range, I see no reason to not just use an LLC ?? The Ohio Secretary of State says an LLC is valid. The LLC can survive you as well, and your descendants if they so choose, it can survive forever in fact unless the laws change in the future.

Bill

[ORSalesRep]

[/quote]
I realize you addressed your question to FormerNavy, but I'm reading the forum he linked as well. I think the issue comes down to a matter of who prepares and reviews the documents. Quicken specifically tells you to have your documents reviewed by an attorney licensed to practice in your state. In essence Quicken is just a template and you are told to take it to a lawyer. Whether or not you do is your discretion.

On the other hand if the dealer gives you the document to fill in the blanks and says or implies that's all you need, then he is practicing law. It might be a different story if the dealer gave you the forms and then told you to take it to your lawyer to have everything reviewed. This would be a great time for someone like Sean to drop in and enlighten us on exactly what constitutes practicing law! [/quote]

makes complete sense! Thanks!

[FormerNavy]

I am finalizing my NFA Trust and have a few questions I'm hoping some experienced folks can help with...

1) How does one prove funding of the trust? Is a statement in the trust that $10 has been conveyed/tranferred/assigned to the trust sufficient? Do I need the funding listed on my Schedule A or is that only for NFA items?

2) When filing a Form 1/Form 4 using the trust, do I need to also include a Certification of Compliance (ATF Form 5330.20)? I've read things stating the ATF was now requiring this for trusts as well, but those postings are several years old.

3) Anyone have any recommendations where I can get the stripped lower engraved to ATF specifications?

4) Is it true that anyone with access to the NFA items needs to be a trustee?