NFA Trust

[ORSalesRep]

Hello,

I am in the process of purchasing my first silencer and have decided to g the route of setting up an NFA Trust. I was going to use Quicken Willmaker and do it myself, but after all of the reading I've done on the internet so far, I am now afraid to take this on myself. I also considered LegalZoom, because if I go with their Vault option, it appears that I would have access to the help of there people via the telephone, but again, I so far have chickened out. That said, can anyone recommend an attorney in the Cleveland area who is experienced in NFA Trusts? Any other suggestions or thoughts that you all have would be very much appreciated.

[willbird]

I have often wondered why one of "our" attorneys who frequent the forums have not made up a boilerplate Trust and provided that service for a fair fee to folks who want to do just what you speak of. It cannot be all that difficult to do.

[Hedgelj]

It would be quite a drive for you but Blackwing SC in Delaware Ohio is working on something like that. I was speaking with one of the guys there and he is working with a Columbus attorney on it. When he said they get it in place it will work like this. Walk in, fill out a form, pay the fee, and your trust will be done in a few weeks by the attorney. He is working on the price with the attorney so that it is lower than the standard price for one considering that Blackwing is taking care of all the information and all the attorney has to do is write it up.

[sodbuster95]

I have often wondered why one of "our" attorneys who frequent the forums have not made up a boilerplate Trust and provided that service for a fair fee to folks who want to do just what you speak of. It cannot be all that difficult to do.

There are ethical considerations which might tend to mitigate against an attorney doing this to avoid unintended liability or obligations to a person no one considered a "client" until a malpractice suit or bar complaint shows up.

[dan dan the XD40 man]

I've done multiple items on a "Quicken" trust and not had any problems. When I was doing my research, most of the people saying not to go that route were, amazingly, lawyers trying to sell NFA Trusts.

[djthomas]

I've done multiple items on a "Quicken" trust and not had any problems. When I was doing my research, most of the people saying not to go that route were, amazingly, lawyers trying to sell NFA Trusts.

When you say you didn't have any problems, what does that mean? Just because the transfer was approved doesn't mean that something couldn't bubble up a few years from now. The trouble might not even be from the ATF, at least initially. Let's say you wind up in litigation over something like a car accident and the trust comes up. For whatever reason the trust is found to be invalid. You are now in personal possession of NFA items without the proper registration. Suddenly the ATF might care when you try to transfer them in the future or something else causes them to pull the file up again.

I guess it's a matter of one's comfort level. Personally I would probably spend a couple hundred bucks to have a trusted lawyer at least review what I'm trying to do. In my mind the penalties for illegal possession of an NFA item are so high I'd rather not try to save a few bucks and hope nothing ever comes up. Chances are it won't but I'd like to be able to say I did my due diligence. There was a Legal Beagle column in one of the OFCC newsletters some time ago that talked about NFA trusts and some common pitfalls. I would certainly avoid the ambulance chasers who do NFA trusts on the side.

[pleasantguywhopacks]

IF this is so tenuous a route why do we not hear of droves of NFA violation people sitting in prison?

[dan dan the XD40 man]

I've done multiple items on a "Quicken" trust and not had any problems. When I was doing my research, most of the people saying not to go that route were, amazingly, lawyers trying to sell NFA Trusts.

When you say you didn't have any problems, what does that mean? Just because the transfer was approved doesn't mean that something couldn't bubble up a few years from now. The trouble might not even be from the ATF, at least initially. Let's say you wind up in litigation over something like a car accident and the trust comes up. For whatever reason the trust is found to be invalid. You are now in personal possession of NFA items without the proper registration. Suddenly the ATF might care when you try to transfer them in the future or something else causes them to pull the file up again.

I guess it's a matter of one's comfort level. Personally I would probably spend a couple hundred bucks to have a trusted lawyer at least review what I'm trying to do. In my mind the penalties for illegal possession of an NFA item are so high I'd rather not try to save a few bucks and hope nothing ever comes up. Chances are it won't but I'd like to be able to say I did my due diligence. There was a Legal Beagle column in one of the OFCC newsletters some time ago that talked about NFA trusts and some common pitfalls. I would certainly avoid the ambulance chasers who do NFA trusts on the side.

The ATF signed off on my papers. Why would they all of a sudden become illegal?

Youre grasping at straws. We can play "what if" all day long.

I tend to live more in reality.

But hey, thanks for the concern!

[FormerNavy]

Ok stupid question here... is there something specific about an NFA trust, that you couldn't accomplish through a normal trust? In other words, is there such a thing as an NFA-specific trust?

[dan dan the XD40 man]

Ok stupid question here... is there something specific about an NFA trust, that you couldn't accomplish through a normal trust? In other words, is there such a thing as an NFA-specific trust?

You can pay a lawyer to put some NFA specific wording into the trust, but none of that matters to the ATF.

[willbird]

I have often wondered why one of "our" attorneys who frequent the forums have not made up a boilerplate Trust and provided that service for a fair fee to folks who want to do just what you speak of. It cannot be all that difficult to do.

There are ethical considerations which might tend to mitigate against an attorney doing this to avoid unintended liability or obligations to a person no one considered a "client" until a malpractice suit or bar complaint shows up.

They WOULD be a client. They Attorney would be doing exactly what Legal Zoom does, but dealing only with Ohio not all the states. Attorneys have all kinds of boilerplate forms they use, for evictions for example...they pull up a template, change the names, dates, address, and file it.

All I am suggesting is that an Attorney deal in SIMPLE trusts for NFA use only....no added fringes.

The ATF cannot know that every single trust, issued in every single state, to every single person is valid...............and honestly if it IS invalid the ATF may love it, because then they get to destroy a transferrible Title II worth in some cases $10,000 or more.

Bill

[Harlie]

Why take unnecessary risk, by doing it on the cheap. A NFA trust is specific to fire arms and equipment related to NFA regulation. Where a "Trust" isn't. There is cheap and there is inexpensive, should your "Trust" fail to meet the NFA interpatation, the "trust" won't be cheap, rather very expensive including loss of 2nd Ammendent rights with potential prison as well.
It's your game play it your way, be aware cheap is exactly what you get for what you pay for it.
PS, My paper work is going on five months on two cans. With a NFA trust.

[FormerNavy]

Why take unnecessary risk, by doing it on the cheap. A NFA trust is specific to fire arms and equipment related to NFA regulation. Where a "Trust" isn't. There is cheap and there is inexpensive, should your "Trust" fail to meet the NFA interpatation, the "trust" won't be cheap, rather very expensive including loss of 2nd Ammendent rights with potential prison as well.
It's your game play it your way, be aware cheap is exactly what you get for what you pay for it.
PS, My paper work is going on five months on two cans. With a NFA trust.

Not an issue of being cheap... I asked because I already have a trust, but it wasn't setup to be an NFA trust specifically.

[dan dan the XD40 man]

A decent discussion on The Firing Line website on "Self Done" trusts vs. "lawyer=done" trusts.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420850" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[djthomas]

The ATF signed off on my papers. Why would they all of a sudden become illegal?

Youre grasping at straws. We can play "what if" all day long.

I tend to live more in reality.

But hey, thanks for the concern!

The ATF does only a marginal review to see that the trust has paperwork. Their approval of the transfer is in no way an endorsement that the trust is valid. Furthermore the trust must continue to exist until the weapons are lawfully disposed of. The ATF won't void your trust but maybe a local court will - just a few years ago we went through an issue with my grandmother's trust being found invalid during a legal dispute with a contractor. The trust had been valid for over 10 years but it didn't properly account for my grandfather passing away. A new trust was drawn up and life went on, but it would have been a big problem if the trust held NFA items.

The problem is that the trust can cease to exist but the weapons do not. If that happens you no longer possess the weapons in the capacity of trustee but as an individual. From the ATF's standpoint you are now in unlawful possession of NFA items as the items were never legally transferred to you, they were transferred to a defunct corporate entity.

Don't think the ATF won't ever check? Here's a little story about a friend of mine who owns two German Schmeisser MP-40s in a trust. He had a break in and a few pistols were taken. Thankfully the MP-40s were in a safe. When the police came he opened the safe to make sure everything was there. He didn't even think about it at the time but the evidence technician took some photos of the inside of the safe.

A week later he ran to the store when his wife answered the door to find two ATF agents wanting to talk about some photos. Seems they couldn't find any paperwork proving lawful ownership. His wife opened the safe and showed them the items. By then my friend had returned home. He quickly produced the original ATF paperwork which they closely reviewed. They also checked to make sure that his wife was on the trust since she had access to the items. After a few calls to the office to confirm if the trust had filed a tax return the previous year the agents thanked them for their time and apologized for the mix up.

Hey, you're comfortable with your arrangement so more power to you. All I'm saying is that if I were to get into NFA items I would spend a few bucks to have an attorney draw up the paperwork. At least then I've got some support if there turn out to be issues with the trust later on.