ORC 2921.x - magazine capacity limit

[willbird]

Personally I think we should get 1-2 people in each of Ohio's counties to ALL apply for the "may issue" permit all at the same time (How about July 4th ?)

I am fairly certain my county Sheriff (williams County) would not sign for one, he will not sign form 4's for supressors.

[rs172203]

Here is my thinking on this:
The AR-15 was originally designed to shoot from a 20 round magazine.
The mags were eventually designed to hold more than 30 rounds.
Therefore, the gun has not been specifically adapted to do anything......The mag as been adapted

I doubt that would hold up in court but its an interesting argument.

[P-chan]

Personally I think we should get 1-2 people in each of Ohio's counties to ALL apply for the "may issue" permit all at the same time (How about July 4th ?)

I am fairly certain my county Sheriff (williams County) would not sign for one, he will not sign form 4's for supressors.

Getting a CLEO to sign off on a Form 4 is good, but a much better way is forming a trust. Bypasses the Sheriff sign-off, and you can add people to your trust so that the suppressor wouldn't need to be registered by your heirs again when you die - the trust owns the NFA item.

[willbird]

Personally I think we should get 1-2 people in each of Ohio's counties to ALL apply for the "may issue" permit all at the same time (How about July 4th ?)

I am fairly certain my county Sheriff (williams County) would not sign for one, he will not sign form 4's for supressors.

Getting a CLEO to sign off on a Form 4 is good, but a much better way is forming a trust. Bypasses the Sheriff sign-off, and you can add people to your trust so that the suppressor wouldn't need to be registered by your heirs again when you die - the trust owns the NFA item.

That is why I own an LLC .

But the permit I am talking about still requires the sherrif to sign even for a corp, a trust, or an LLC.

Bill

[djthomas]

FWIW : the NFA statute exempting NFA items from further state control is certainly not the case in CA where suppressors are illegal, and other states where NFA items are not permitted....

It's not the NFA that exempts its covered items from state control. It's Ohio law that exempts NFA registered items from Ohio law. There's nothing in the NFA that requires a state to allow or exempt NFA items from state laws and further there's nothing in the NFA that prohibits states from having their own more restrictive laws concerning them. Many states do indeed exempt NFA compliant items from state law but they are under absolutely no obligation to do so.

States are permitted, and some would allege encouraged, to exceed the minimum in just about any way they want. Hence CA can outlaw suppressors and the ATF will gladly deny any requests to register one in that state. One of the first things ATF checks is to make sure that possession of the weapon is not contrary to state or local law - in fact that's one purpose of the CLEO signature on the form.

Bill - you're talking about the Ohio license to possess dangerous ordinance aren't you? I've never met anybody with such a license except for some guys that regularly use dynamite.

[willbird]

Bill - you're talking about the Ohio license to possess dangerous ordinance aren't you? I've never met anybody with such a license except for some guys that regularly use dynamite.

Yes that is what I am referring to. And when I talked to(on the phone after dropping off the form) Kevin Beck the Williams County Sheriff about signing a form 4 for a Supressor he insisted that I would need said permit to posses NFA, he in fact said he had signed a form 4 and the permit application for a Bryan Attorney who had crop damage permits to harvest deer that were eating his prune trees.

Even though it is illegal in Ohio to kill a wild game quadruped with a suppressor equipped firearm the Sheriff felt the attorney had a "legitimate" need for one, and my need (recreation) was NOT legitimate. The Sheriff stammered a bit when I asked him if he knew it was illegal to kill a wild game quadruped with a supressor equipped firearm.

I called the state fire marshals office and asked about the permit and he said they are not required for NFA and the person I was transferred to said he did not recall one ever being issued for that reason.

Bill

[mrbone]

I don't have the specific case names, but the Ohio Supreme Court on a couple of occasions has interpreted this law to mean that it is legal to own both a +30 round magazine and a firearm that can use it, so long as you never insert the magazine into the firearm. So we don't need to guess how the courts will interpret the language. The courts already have, and they took the best interpretation we could hope to have for this stupid law.

[djthomas]

I don't have the specific case names, but the Ohio Supreme Court on a couple of occasions has interpreted this law to mean that it is legal to own both a +30 round magazine and a firearm that can use it, so long as you never insert the magazine into the firearm. So we don't need to guess how the courts will interpret the language. The courts already have, and they took the best interpretation we could hope to have for this stupid law.

Of course this is exactly the opposite of the position that the ATF takes with respect to federal violations. They go by a much broader concept called constructive possession. Let's assume I have a short barrel up in my home office which is nothing more than a circular tube made out of metal. Perfectly legal. But then down in the basement safe there's a receiver that the barrel would fit. In this case I'm considered to be in possession of a short barreled firearm under the constrictive possession concept.

That's why the guides on how to lawfully make a short-barreled weapon tell you to not even think about cutting the barrel down until you've got the approval in hand. From the ATF's standpoint you've manufactured it the second you have all the components in your possession. The fact that you intend to wait to do all the assembly work until after you've got approval is irrelevant.

[willbird]

I don't have the specific case names, but the Ohio Supreme Court on a couple of occasions has interpreted this law to mean that it is legal to own both a +30 round magazine and a firearm that can use it, so long as you never insert the magazine into the firearm. So we don't need to guess how the courts will interpret the language. The courts already have, and they took the best interpretation we could hope to have for this stupid law.

Of course this is exactly the opposite of the position that the ATF takes with respect to federal violations. They go by a much broader concept called constructive possession. Let's assume I have a short barrel up in my home office which is nothing more than a circular tube made out of metal. Perfectly legal. But then down in the basement safe there's a receiver that the barrel would fit. In this case I'm considered to be in possession of a short barreled firearm under the constrictive possession concept.

That's why the guides on how to lawfully make a short-barreled weapon tell you to not even think about cutting the barrel down until you've got the approval in hand. From the ATF's standpoint you've manufactured it the second you have all the components in your possession. The fact that you intend to wait to do all the assembly work until after you've got approval is irrelevant.

Constructive Possession applies more harshly to some types of firearms than others.....for example a full auto carrier in an AR-15 is treated as constructive possession, but the same part in a semi AK variant is not.

[djthomas]

Constructive Possession applies more harshly to some types of firearms than others.....for example a full auto carrier in an AR-15 is treated as constructive possession, but the same part in a semi AK variant is not.

Of course it is. That's why we were assured that they'd never try to charge someone with possession of a machine gun for merely being in possession of an AR-15, a shoelace, and some duct tape at the same time ... how nice of them, but for the grace of some bureaucrat I'm not a felon yet. Whoopie.

[Morne]

Constructive Possession applies more harshly to some types of firearms than others.....for example a full auto carrier in an AR-15 is treated as constructive possession, but the same part in a semi AK variant is not.

Of course it is. That's why we were assured that they'd never try to charge someone with possession of a machine gun for merely being in possession of an AR-15, a shoelace, and some duct tape at the same time ... how nice of them, but for the grace of some bureaucrat I'm not a felon yet. Whoopie.

Argument #3,507 why cowboy boots are superior to gym shoes.

[mrbone]

Yes, it is the total opposite of how the BATF interprets things. Fortunately, the BATF doesn't have authority over state laws and we can rely on our better Ohio Supreme Court. But it certainly does make things confusing.

One possible reason for this is that federal laws might specifically define a machine gun as having the parts for it. This is a guess; I don't have the text in front of me. For example, some cities in Ohio have laws banning certain weapons, and also explicitly defines a weapon as something that can shoot bullets or the parts to easily construct something that can shoot bullets. ORC 2321, on the other hand, does not explicitly define weapons in this manner. That might explain the difference between ORC 2321 and the evil BATF.

[willbird]

The reason for the special enforcement of the rules on the AR-15 is due to what at one time was a readily avail Drop In Auto Sear (aka DIAS) that needed the parts in question to function....the way the laws WERE enforced if the DIAS was not in the gun than it was not a MG.

[Glock Rock]

ARISE!

Does HB 234 make it legal to possess and use 50 round centerfire mags now?

Lines of the Bill: 423-426
ORC: 2923.11(E)
Comment: Automatic firearm no longer includes a firearm that can fire more than 31 without reloading

http://ohioccw.org/images/SummaryOfGunL ... es2014.pdf

[BobK]

ARISE!

Does HB 234 make it legal to possess and use 50 round centerfire mags now?

Yep. As of March 23rd. Use 100 round drums too if it makes you happy.