background checks.

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Liberty
Posts: 91
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Re: background checks.

Post by Liberty »

Tweed Ring wrote:One need only observe our court system or view the weekly new load climb off the grey bus to understand the problem with recidivism.

I do not want those people legally armed. I do not want them armed, illegally, as well.
The only thing that recidivism and firearms prohibitions have to do with each other is that recidivism is used as an excuse for gun control. Not only are firearms prohibitions completely ineffective (despite years of collecting data there is no evidence that such prohibitions do anything to reduce crime), they are counterproductive. They give people a false sense of security and perpetuate the myth that firearms are the source of violence, and they perpetuate the myth that we can release the really bad people because they won't be able to hurt anyone because they are not permitted to have firearms.

Moreover, such prohibitions are an illegal usurpation of authority specifically denied the government by the Constitution. Are you ok with the government usurping authority it does not have just because it seems like the thing to do?

And just like you don't want "those people" armed, remember Michael Bloomberg doesn't want people like us armed--and he has a lobby too.
Tweed Ring
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Re: background checks.

Post by Tweed Ring »

After viewing Mayor Bloomberg's track record, I have little fear of him as an Ohio resident.

Perhaps those in durance vile should also be permitted arms ... they are, for the most part, citizens who are protected by our Bill of Rights.
bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

Wow this really became an interesting topic. It's nice to see so many different opinions. Although we've gone some what off topic, I'm enjoying the debate. Let me ask all of you. Would any of you be ok with a 3 time felon having gun rights revoked? My thought on this is, if a person continues to get arrested for felony crimes, then they are deemed not responsible enough for firearms. I guess the reason I don't think felons (at least multiple offenders) should own firearms is from personal experiences based on quite a few of my family members, which are multiple offenders and when talking to them you would realize they have some very clear anger issues as well. The anger issues became much worse each time they went to prison, I would not trust any of them with a gun (and at least 3 of these people are my brothers).


On a side note, I went up today to pick up my chl license. Took 1 week through lorain county.
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JediSkipdogg
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Re: background checks.

Post by JediSkipdogg »

bhess wrote:Wow this really became an interesting topic. It's nice to see so many different opinions. Although we've gone some what off topic, I'm enjoying the debate. Let me ask all of you. Would any of you be ok with a 3 time felon having gun rights revoked? My thought on this is, if a person continues to get arrested for felony crimes, then they are deemed not responsible enough for firearms. I guess the reason I don't think felons (at least multiple offenders) should own firearms is from personal experiences based on quite a few of my family members, which are multiple offenders and when talking to them you would realize they have some very clear anger issues as well. The anger issues became much worse each time they went to prison, I would not trust any of them with a gun (and at least 3 of these people are my brothers).


On a side note, I went up today to pick up my chl license. Took 1 week through lorain county.
I work in law enforcement, as a dispatcher/crime analyst, but still work in it. I have huge problems with classifying any restrictions on a broad category such as felony or misdemeanor. Why is sometime that accidentally carriers into a building they didn't know was a government building more dangerous than a guy convicted of beating his wife? Why is stealing my Macbook more severe than punching me in the face?

I look at three categories of crime, crimes against persons, crimes against property, and crimes against society.

The ONLY way I think a person should lose their gun rights is a crime against person involving a firearm. Any other crime, there is no reason to remove it besides as an added punishment unrelated to the crime. How would society life it if we said you commit a theft offense you lose the right to drive a car? Or better yet, you commit an assault you lose the right to own a vehicle and must turn all vehicles into your local police department. After all, you might go from punching people to running them down in the street.
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
bhess wrote:Wow this really became an interesting topic. It's nice to see so many different opinions. Although we've gone some what off topic, I'm enjoying the debate. Let me ask all of you. Would any of you be ok with a 3 time felon having gun rights revoked? My thought on this is, if a person continues to get arrested for felony crimes, then they are deemed not responsible enough for firearms. I guess the reason I don't think felons (at least multiple offenders) should own firearms is from personal experiences based on quite a few of my family members, which are multiple offenders and when talking to them you would realize they have some very clear anger issues as well. The anger issues became much worse each time they went to prison, I would not trust any of them with a gun (and at least 3 of these people are my brothers).


On a side note, I went up today to pick up my chl license. Took 1 week through lorain county.
I work in law enforcement, as a dispatcher/crime analyst, but still work in it. I have huge problems with classifying any restrictions on a broad category such as felony or misdemeanor. Why is sometime that accidentally carriers into a building they didn't know was a government building more dangerous than a guy convicted of beating his wife? Why is stealing my Macbook more severe than punching me in the face?

I look at three categories of crime, crimes against persons, crimes against property, and crimes against society.

The ONLY way I think a person should lose their gun rights is a crime against person involving a firearm. Any other crime, there is no reason to remove it besides as an added punishment unrelated to the crime. How would society life it if we said you commit a theft offense you lose the right to drive a car? Or better yet, you commit an assault you lose the right to own a vehicle and must turn all vehicles into your local police department. After all, you might go from punching people to running them down in the street.

I see your point, that makes perfect sense.
Liberty
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Re: background checks.

Post by Liberty »

You guys are missing the point. Firearms prohibitions don't prevent crime. You are operating from a false narrative. As long as we accept the false narrative (i.e., that keeping firearms away from dangerous people will reduce crime) the government will continue to let violent people out of prisons while claiming that making it illegal for them to possess firearms will somehow make them non-violent. If we concede on the false narrative we will all eventually loose our rights because criminals will continue to be released from prisons and acquire firearms and continue to commit crimes with firearms that they obtain illegally. And, operating under the false narrative, the only way to keep them from using firearms to harm people is to remove the firearms from the population. That is how it was done in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, China, and more recently in the U.K. and Australia.

If someone is too dangerous to possess firearms, they are too dangerous to drive a car or possess a knife or hammer. The reason that firearms are prohibited is because they represent a threat to tyrants who wish to use the coercive power of government to enslave the population.

If someone is too dangerous to possess firearms, they should be separated from society until they are deemed not dangerous. We used to have a system similar to that, i.e., indeterminate sentencing and discretionary release. The feds went to determinant sentencing with mandatory release (i.e.,flat time) in 1984. Ohio did that in 1996.
Tweed Ring
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Re: background checks.

Post by Tweed Ring »

My false narrative keeps me warm and cozy on these cold winter nights...
bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

Liberty wrote:You guys are missing the point. Firearms prohibitions don't prevent crime. You are operating from a false narrative. As long as we accept the false narrative (i.e., that keeping firearms away from dangerous people will reduce crime) the government will continue to let violent people out of prisons while claiming that making it illegal for them to possess firearms will somehow make them non-violent. If we concede on the false narrative we will all eventually loose our rights because criminals will continue to be released from prisons and acquire firearms and continue to commit crimes with firearms that they obtain illegally. And, operating under the false narrative, the only way to keep them from using firearms to harm people is to remove the firearms from the population. That is how it was done in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, China, and more recently in the U.K. and Australia.

If someone is too dangerous to possess firearms, they are too dangerous to drive a car or possess a knife or hammer. The reason that firearms are prohibited is because they represent a threat to tyrants who wish to use the coercive power of government to enslave the population.

If someone is too dangerous to possess firearms, they should be separated from society until they are deemed not dangerous. We used to have a system similar to that, i.e., indeterminate sentencing and discretionary release. The feds went to determinant sentencing with mandatory release (i.e.,flat time) in 1984. Ohio did that in 1996.

So your talking all felons correct? Would you say though that people with multiple violent crimes should not be allowed to own a firearm ? Or maybe a time limit after the last conviction to obtain, just to make sure they don't commit another violent act?
Liberty
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Re: background checks.

Post by Liberty »

bhess wrote:So your talking all felons correct? Would you say though that people with multiple violent crimes should not be allowed to own a firearm ? Or maybe a time limit after the last conviction to obtain, just to make sure they don't commit another violent act?
Those people should not get out of prison. They can have knives, hammers, axes, bows and arrows, poison and cars as soon as they are released; and if they are going to kill someone, do you really think they would be worried about being charged with illegally possessing a firearm?

You are still operating under the assumption that the false narrative is is true. Making it illegal for such a person to own a firearm will do nothing to reduce the likelihood that such a person will commit another violent crime. It will only create a false sense of security, encourage the release of repeat violent criminals and lead to future attempts to disarm us all. If everyone got their firearm rights back upon release, maybe judges would be take more care to keep repeat violent offenders in prison. And we have more than enough space in prisons to keep the truly violent people as long as we use community-based corrections for the non-violent offenders. Too many non-violent people get prison time for having an incompetent lawyer or a lawyer that the judge does not like or does not golf with, and too many violent offenders get light sentences because they are legally savvy and hire the judge's golfing buddy to represent them.

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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin (11/11/1755).
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MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: background checks.

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

One of my family members had two theft-related felonies in their past (over 20 years ago).

Never anything violent, no drugs, not even alcohol...just stupid.

I helped get his rights restored in Franklin county.

After that, a CHL application was made and a CHL was issued.

It's a good thing we didn't care what some people thought.

Some (most?) people's opinions are colored by their personal experiences and prejudices.

Tweed's feelings are perfectly understandable.

Six Shooter probably has some reason (of which we are unaware) for his stance as well.
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bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:One of my family members had two theft-related felonies in their past (over 20 years ago).

Never anything violent, no drugs, not even alcohol...just stupid.

I helped get his rights restored in Franklin county.

After that, a CHL application was made and a CHL was issued.

It's a good thing we didn't care what some people thought.

Some (most?) people's opinions are colored by their personal experiences and prejudices.

Tweed's feelings are perfectly understandable.

Six Shooter probably has some reason (of which we are unaware) for his stance as well.

IF the felonies are not violent I don't really have any issues with owning a gun, or even getting a chl. It's the violent ones I'm more concerned with.
bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

Liberty wrote:
bhess wrote:So your talking all felons correct? Would you say though that people with multiple violent crimes should not be allowed to own a firearm ? Or maybe a time limit after the last conviction to obtain, just to make sure they don't commit another violent act?
Those people should not get out of prison. They can have knives, hammers, axes, bows and arrows, poison and cars as soon as they are released; and if they are going to kill someone, do you really think they would be worried about being charged with illegally possessing a firearm?

You are still operating under the assumption that the false narrative is is true. Making it illegal for such a person to own a firearm will do nothing to reduce the likelihood that such a person will commit another violent crime. It will only create a false sense of security, encourage the release of repeat violent criminals and lead to future attempts to disarm us all. If everyone got their firearm rights back upon release, maybe judges would be take more care to keep repeat violent offenders in prison. And we have more than enough space in prisons to keep the truly violent people as long as we use community-based corrections for the non-violent offenders. Too many non-violent people get prison time for having an incompetent lawyer or a lawyer that the judge does not like or does not golf with, and too many violent offenders get light sentences because they are legally savvy and hire the judge's golfing buddy to represent them.

-------------------------------------
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin (11/11/1755).
You shouldn't assume that i'm operating under any pretenses at all. I'm only asking to get another take on the subject. I actually agree that if someone has multiple violent felonies that they should be not be let out of prison. You should understand that I see everyones point and, they are all very good points and great arguments against one another. I think thats why this is such a debate, its easy to make sense of all of these opinions, so they may naturally come with strong feelings.
Liberty
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Re: background checks.

Post by Liberty »

bhess wrote:You shouldn't assume that i'm operating under any pretenses at all. I'm only asking to get another take on the subject. I actually agree that if someone has multiple violent felonies that they should be not be let out of prison. You should understand that I see everyones point and, they are all very good points and great arguments against one another. I think thats why this is such a debate, its easy to make sense of all of these opinions, so they may naturally come with strong feelings.
I guess that I should have stated that your statement assumes the false narrative that gun control is effective when imposed upon those who have previously committed multiple violent felonies. And please don't anyone take offense from anything that I write. I am trying to explain my position and I do not look down upon anyone--so if I appear condescending, I don't mean to be.

My point about there being no evidence that gun control laws imposed upon former felons does anything to reduce crime is a fact. It is not mere opinion. My opinion is that because of that fact, the government should not do it, and instead, should use other types of approaches, including rehabilitation, rehabilitation and education. There is a plethora of evidence that these approaches reduce recidivism when used appropriately with those who are amenable to such treatment. And we should incapacitate those who are deemed intractable.

Also, it is fact that when the 2nd Amendment was ratified it meant the governments (state and federal) were divested of authority to infringe upon the preexisting right of any free person to have and carry firearms. It is also a fact that the Supreme Court has established the method of Constitutional interpretation for the 2nd Amendment is what the right meant when it was ratified. It is also a fact that the Supreme Court made a non binding obiter dicta statement that laws that prohibit felons from having firearms are preemptively valid. It is my opinion that Justice Scalia was wrong and that such prohibitions would not survive Constitutional scrutiny at any level if the empirical evidence is properly presented and considered. And, by the way, the Sixth Circuit just ruled that categorical firearms prohibitions must have a compelling governmental interest and be narrowly tailored to achieving that interest, i.e., strict scrutiny. See Tyler v. Hillsdale Cnty. Sheriff's Dept., (6th Cir 12-18-2014), No. 13-1876, http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-conten ... -18-14.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

We as firearms rights advocates need to be able to identify false narratives so that we can base our opinions upon facts and not the propaganda spewed from the media. Specifically, we need to understand that gun control does not work against those who have been convicted of crimes for the same reason that it does not work in all other situations. We need to understand that gun control's only purpose is to disarm and thereby make a population vulnerable to tyranny, and that, that is the only objective it has ever achieved. See Death by Gun Control: http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Six Shooter
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Re: background checks.

Post by Six Shooter »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Six Shooter probably has some reason (of which we are unaware) for his stance as well.
That's a good assessment of my opinion.

And why, I would defer to Tweeds thoughts because of his experience.

Just because they kind of "mirror" my experiences. (albeit, not as vast)
Tweed Ring
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Re: background checks.

Post by Tweed Ring »

It is interesting to note Mr. Mark Kelly, Congresswoman Giffords’ husband, failed one background check for a handgun (out of state resident) and was denied the purchase of a long gun (retailer returned his money after the purchaser publically claimed the rifle was not for his personal use.)

The man who shot Congresswoman Giffords passed the background check. For noting these facts, the NRA was pilloried as being insensitive, blood thirsty, etc. by the legacy Lewinsky media.
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