Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried guns

A sub-forum for the purpose of discussing ORC 9.68 compliance. This sub-forum is strictly for the discussion of progress in individual cities and their respective parks.

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by Chuck »

Werz wrote:
Chuck wrote:Do you consider yourself an advocate for freedom, knowledge and honesty?
I think we down here in the grassroots are
And those at the grassroots level should stand up for their legal rights, rather than relying on the courts to enforce them. What happens when the courts begin to believe that, as a separate branch of government, they are not subject to R.C. 9.68, and that they can punish with their "inherent contempt powers" acts involving firearms which some judges find offensive or "scary," despite the fact that such acts are clearly lawful? What then?

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by curmudgeon3 »

The Governor, remember him?, has long since abandoned our 2nd Amendment; "there's nobody coming - we're on our own".
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by WestonDon »

Chuck wrote:
Werz wrote:
Chuck wrote:Do you consider yourself an advocate for freedom, knowledge and honesty?
I think we down here in the grassroots are
And those at the grassroots level should stand up for their legal rights, rather than relying on the courts to enforce them. What happens when the courts begin to believe that, as a separate branch of government, they are not subject to R.C. 9.68, and that they can punish with their "inherent contempt powers" acts involving firearms which some judges find offensive or "scary," despite the fact that such acts are clearly lawful? What then?

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I agree with Chuck. These steps must be completed and in the proper order.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by Rhino »

someguy wrote:If they claim to be private property we can even carry in the buildings they own without it being a felony right? Might be more of a risk than most of us want to take, but could help prove our point about statewide compliance.
Fourth degree misdemeanor. You could still spend 30 days in jail.
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E-mail sent to media, 10/7/16

Post by BB62 »

My name is Jeffry Smith, from Cincinnati. I’m a firearms instructor and civil rights activist, generally focusing on matters related to firearms. I became interested in this matter because of personal contacts and from reading reports of others.

Here’s the bottom line of this e-mail:

Among other things, Dayton’s RTA falsely claims that public property, in the form of RTA’s land and buses, is private property. Perpetuating this falsehood, and against settled Ohio law, RTA has established rules/codes/etc. that disallow the legal carry of firearms on RTA’s property and buses.

Over the past few years, at a minimum, individuals including myself have informed RTA that their firearm prohibition is contrary to state law. Then as now, it seems, they have ignored/effectively ignored such communications or merely cited their “policy”.

It should be noted that the Cincinnati public transit authority has already examined matters such as this and has no restrictions on firearm carry.

So, at some point, legal action may be necessary to ensure that RTA complies with Ohio law.


Two things: 1) besides ccing RTA’s outside counsel (Jonathan Hollingsworth), you’ll note that I have also cced the Dayton Police (Chief’s assistant), the Montgomery County Sheriff, Dayton’s Law Director (secretary) & Chief Prosecutor, and the Montgomery County head criminal prosecutor, and 2) although some of the subject matter relates to both sidearms (handguns) and long arms (rifles & shotguns), unless otherwise noted, I will confine my remarks to sidearm (handgun) carry.

*** *** ***

* Recent activity *

On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 I drove to Dayton to visit the Transit Center adjacent to RTA headquarters. I was openly carrying a handgun in a holster and was fully aware of RTA’s “Rules of Road” and “Code of Conduct” (links below).

I asked to speak to a supervisor and was put in contact with Tony Nicely as well as a representative of Homeland Security. I asked Tony about RTA’s firearm policy and was told that RTA policy disallowed firearms. I asked for the name of Tony’s supervisor – Gerry Gustin, who wasn’t going to be in until 3PM or so. I asked whether the public was permitted to speak to the Board at the Board of Trustees meeting, also at 3PM, and Tony said “Yes”.

I left Tony and the HS representative and walked back towards my car, despite Tony’s protest that I could not have a gun on RTA’s property. I told him that it was perfectly legal for me to do so, and I said something to the effect that he would be told so soon enough, since I was sure the Board would rectify the situation.

Shortly before 3PM I disarmed and travelled to RTA’s third floor, where I signed up to speak. I noted that there was a manned video camera, so I asked if the proceedings were to be recorded – and was told “Yes”.

During my speaking time Mr. Hollingsworth acknowledged that RTA was a political subdivision. During my speaking time or just afterward, Mark Donaghy (RTA’s CEO) acknowledged being in receipt of multiple communications regarding the subject of RTA’s prohibitory firearm policy. After the meeting adjourned Mr. Donaghy told me that RTA’s “policy” prohibited firearms. He would not address the legalities of the matter.

After leaving the meeting I went downstairs and saw Tony Nicely again. I asked him to summon the Dayton Police. He did so and we all met outside. I’ll save myself typing the entirety of the conversation, but Detective William Swisher of the Dayton Police told me I’d be cited for trespassing if I were to retrieve my sidearm from my car and return to RTA property with it. Det. Swisher suggested I instead contact Stephanie Cook, Dayton’s Chief Prosecutor, and gave me her phone number.

Dayton officer Gabbard, who was with Det. Swisher, insisted that RTA property was private property. Gabbard, who evidently fancies himself an opinion enforcement officer, rather than a law enforcement officer, in addition to saying (essentially) “You’re not even from around here!”, questioned my motives. I will be filing a formal complaint regarding Officer Gabbard’s conduct.

I have an audio recording of all my interactions with the various people identified above.


* Ohio firearms law primer *

1) Ohio has “preemption” in matters related to firearms. What that means in layman’s terms is that Ohio’s firearm laws (Federal laws are another subject) are set at the *state* level. No lower level government or government entity can establish laws, rules, or regulations in addition to or more strict than state firearm laws.

2) Ohio’s firearm preemption law is ORC (Ohio Revised Code) 9.68: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3) Note that ORC 9.68 provides: “(B) In addition to any other relief provided, the court shall award costs and reasonable attorney fees to any person, group, or entity that prevails in a challenge to an ordinance, rule, or regulation as being in conflict with this section.”

4) A common term for a “lower level government or government entity” is “political subdivision”.

5) Dayton’s RTA (Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority) is a political subdivision.

- Various references to the establishment and operation of a county transit system, ORC 306.01 +: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/Search/306.01" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- ORC 306.31: “… A regional transit authority so created is a political subdivision of the state…” http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/306.31" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Montgomery County web page: http://www.mcohio.org/government/electe ... _gdrta.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

6) ORC 9.68 and/or its preemptive power has been part of two cases decided by the Ohio Supreme Court:

- City of Cleveland Vs State of Ohio: http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/docs/ ... o-6318.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Ohioans for Concealed carry Vs City of Clyde: http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/docs/ ... o-4605.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

7) Ohio law allows for concealed or open handgun carry in/on motor vehicles by those who possess an Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun, or its recognized equivalent

8.) Ohio law allows the open carry of firearms on public property open to the public by those who can legally possess a firearm


* Conclusion *

RTA has no credibility - their claim of “private property” and their multi-year inaction once alerted to their violation of the law provides plenty of evidence. Furthermore, based on my readings and personal experience, it’s clear to me that RTA, with or without the approval of the Board, has been engaged in a multi-year conspiracy to deny individuals of their rights under the law. I have no idea whether or not this apparent conspiracy involves the Dayton Police, the Montgomery County Sheriff, or the respective prosecutors.

On Wednesday I sent two e-mails to Mr. Hollingsworth, the contents of which I would be glad to share with interested parties. They describe, in part, the outcome and records I’m seeking.

I have attached a few photos taken at the Wright Transit Center.


Cordially,

Jeffry Smith
xxx-xxx-xxxx




http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2356.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Rules of Road)

http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Code of Conduct)

RTA’s outside counsel
Jonathan Hollingsworth
xxx-xxx-xxxx
JHollingsworth@xxxxxx.com
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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TV interview

Post by BB62 »

I was just interviewed about this matter by Kelly May of Dayton channels 22 & 45. I'm not sure when it will air, but I'll post a direct link when I'm supplied with one.

http://www.abc22now.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Auditor's office images

Post by BB62 »

Here are a couple of images (in addition to more images of the "Private Property" postings at the Transit Center) that I supplied to Ms. May (channels 22 & 45 TV reporter).

They are from the Montgomery County Auditor's website, and show parcel numbers. ALL the parcels that make up the transit center are owned by the Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority. (there are other related matters I'm working on)

The Transit Center is the series of five silver-colored things in the middle of the block.

Image

Image
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by TJW815 »

Part of me says let them charge you... You have told them that it is not private property and they dismissed it, now if they arrest you wouldn't there be some way to hold them financially liable?
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by TJW815 »

There is a RTA hub in Miami Township (Montgomery county), visible for I-675. I may stop by there and see if it also posted. If I get up that way I will also check the one in Trotwood (Montgomery County) near Salem Ave.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by BB62 »

TJW815 wrote:... if they arrest you wouldn't there be some way to hold them financially liable?
Eventually, maybe so, but I'd prefer to avoid that route, if possible.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by BB62 »

TJW815 wrote:There is a RTA hub in Miami Township (Montgomery county), visible for I-675. I may stop by there and see if it also posted. If I get up that way I will also check the one in Trotwood (Montgomery County) near Salem Ave.
Thank you. It's much appreciated.

Please take and post pictures regardless.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by pirateguy191 »

Jeffry, thank you for all that you do.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Post by JonasM »

+1000000

I was smiling the whole time I read that.

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Re: E-mail sent to media, 10/7/16

Post by fisher »

BB62 wrote:

http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Code of Conduct)
Prohibited from:

#1: Carrying or possessing weapons of any kind, including weapons carried pursuant to a valid license."

So they acknowledge that there are people who can have concealed weapons possessed legally, and they specifically prohibit them. What is surprising is that it is RULE NUMBER 1!

At many municipal parks who wished to maintain gun bans, it was often listed halfway down the list near the mentioning of picking up dog poop and no open flames.

RTA has it listed before open container, fighting, and destruction of property.

I realize that the rules posted might not be in any particular order, but added with the prominent private property signage, I believe they will continue to take a hard stance against the removal of such unlawful prohibitions.

BTW- the Piqua buses (Miami county public transit) also prohibit firearms, and they intersect with the Dayton RTA bussses.


Link to piquaoh transit rules:
http://piquaoh.org/download/web/present ... ations.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: E-mail sent to media, 10/7/16

Post by BB62 »

fisher wrote:
BB62 wrote:
http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Code of Conduct)
... BTW- the Piqua buses (Miami county public transit) also prohibit firearms, and they intersect with the Dayton RTA bussses.

Link to piquaoh transit rules:
http://piquaoh.org/download/web/present ... ations.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wow. It must be something in the water up that way!

Thanks for the information. I'll put them on my list.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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