Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried guns

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby WhyNot » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:33 am

Very well done, well articulated on behalf of all parties, interviewer/reporters, and interviewees :D . And a factual reporting of the story. The RTA's long :mrgreen: dissertation, comments , reflections on the law and lengthy debate rebuttal period spoke volumes. Hopefully they will have less to say in the future more like, ''we're sorry'', or ''uncle''
I also appreciate seeing real people doing the reporting jobs instead of models.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby pirateguy191 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:35 am

SeanC wrote:I don't understand the need to make such a big fuss. If they have a rule that is illegal, why don't you just ignore it and go on about your day?



I see Jeffry doesn't listen so well.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby Nixxle » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:40 pm

SeanC wrote:I don't understand the need to make such a big fuss. If they have a rule that is illegal, why don't you just ignore it and go on about your day?


My experience was not with open carry, but with recording the police on RTA property. They don't have the prohibition in their code of conduct, but have verbally asserted it and have it in writing on their public records discs (I'm betting elsewhere, but they basically ignored most of my public records request, counting on the fact that most people are not able to navigate teh beuracratic blockades they put up. In my experience, ignoring the rule caused a proble, that caused me to get cleared and functioned to make my phone go away. The police officer being recorded, and who would have been called on by RTA personnel had I pushed the issue, was very, very tense, unnecessarily so. My kids convinced me not to push the issue because they were pretty scared, and with good reason, that I would either be arrested, or physically manhandled, or hurt. They have been insisting on that particular policy based on the claim of "private property". They have already acted on it, selectively when it comes to holding them accountable, interfering with rights, and very much ignoring citizens coming to them about the issue.

My example is not gun carry, but Jeff's push on this, if successful, will help right their ridiculous private property claim and rights suppression, which has already been ignored and had conseuences.

Further, RTA (and the Dayton region in general) tends to treat different segments of the population doing the same legal thing differently. So, waiting for it to become a bigger problem could mean for some a legal challenge they navigate and come out triumphant for things. For others it means a plea deal and something on their record, or not being able to navigate and becoming banned from a needed mode of transportation, and possibly for other it could mean physical damage or a lethal outcome. Thats something I believe DPD and RTA fully capable of in the heat of a moment escalated by them in the enforcement of these kinds of policies.

For me, even though I didn't know about how it related to guns until Jeff did this, this is an excellent reason for someone to go ahead and fix it before it becomes a problem, before someone gets hurt in some social or physical or legal manner that can't be undone.
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Response to public records requests

Postby BB62 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:20 pm

Mark Donaghy, CEO of RTA, sent me this note today:

I have been advised that you have inquired about the status of your requests. This week our IT staff has spent 6 hours of time searching/extracting documents in word or email files. Those documents now must be reviewed for content to determine if they should be copied to you and that will happen in the near future. Several management team members including Mr. Napier and I have searched our work files and 2 documents are attached for you that were identified in the process. I hope to have the remainder of your requests completed by staff sometime next week.

If you have further questions please direct them to me or our records custodian via the RTA website. Thank you.


** MY RESPONSE **

Just to ensure that we’re all on the same page:

Mr. Hollingsworth,

You have yet to respond or acknowledge my response and re-request to your objection/excuse for not providing e-mail addresses of RTA’s board members. I would like to know when I’m going to get the requested e-mail addresses.

Just to jog your memory, here is what I sent you at 10:10 AM on October 12:

“…As for item #2, where I asked for "Documentation indicating the names & e-mail addresses of RTA's board members", you replied "The RTA does not have organizational email addresses for its board members. Therefore, no email address information is available within the meaning of Ohio’s Public Records Act."

No doubt there are e-mail addresses to which RTA staff send e-mails when they wish to communicate with RTA Board members regarding RTA matters/business, despite the fact that Board members may not have "organizational email addresses". The same is no doubt true in reverse. I would like documentation indicating the e-mail addresses which RTA staff uses to communicate with each Board member, together with associated person's name.”


Mr. Donaghy,

Thank you for the two documents you attached.

It would be very helpful if you, Mr. Hollingsworth, or your records custodian would acknowledge each records request separately, and respond in a similar manner, because saying “the remainder of your requests” could cause one to be overlooked. For each e-mailed request I’ve made, I’ve used what I consider a descriptive subject for just that reason. Some public entities, in what I view as a helpful manner, reply to each request by copying in the original request, including either an expected completion date, or if it’s a quick turnaround, with the records sought.

Mr. Hollingsworth has requested that in the future I direct records requests to the records custodian (recordsrequest@greaterdaytonrta.org), and I will do so.

However, because of potential legal repercussions relating to RTA’s ongoing “private property” fiction, I will be ccing Mr. Hollingsworth on all future records requests.

My current outstanding (unfilled) records requests are as follows:

1) October 5: “RTA open records request - communications regarding RTA's weapons policies” - 2 categories of records sought, one being the subject of the Oct. 12 e-mail as referenced above to Mr. Hollingsworth

2) October 13: “Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage” (with pictures attached) – 4 categories of records sought, with the following note included: “Although I’ve only referenced the Wright Transit Stop in the above four requests, if communications/costs/etc. are found to be applicable to, or reference RTA’s similarly posted (as “private property”) transit stops/centers/parking areas/garages, etc, please include them in your response also.”


Cordially,

me
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby docachna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:09 pm

Is it just me, or is not the very fact that they're even entertaining an Open Records Act request blow the Bejesus of their claim of being an other than governmental entity ????
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby AlanM » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:42 am

docachna wrote:Is it just me, or is not the very fact that they're even entertaining an Open Records Act request blow the Bejesus of their claim of being an other than governmental entity ????


ROTFLOL!!!! VERY GOOD POINT!!!!!
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby Cruiser » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:34 am

AlanM wrote:
docachna wrote:Is it just me, or is not the very fact that they're even entertaining an Open Records Act request blow the Bejesus of their claim of being an other than governmental entity ????


ROTFLOL!!!! VERY GOOD POINT!!!!!

So why isn't the same process used against the Fair Boards!
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby JustJack » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:32 pm

Cruiser wrote:
AlanM wrote:
docachna wrote:Is it just me, or is not the very fact that they're even entertaining an Open Records Act request blow the Bejesus of their claim of being an other than governmental entity ????


ROTFLOL!!!! VERY GOOD POINT!!!!!

So why isn't the same process used against the Fair Boards!

Because with Fair Boards we have better ammunition, an Opinion from the AG's office that says Ag. Societies are Gov't entities, another AG Opinion saying their boards are public bodies, and case law from the OH Sup. Court (Greene vs. Liming), to throw at them.
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Another records request submitted

Postby BB62 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:49 am

Since I don't know how to/can't attach documents, here is a link to the "Corner of Chaos" report mentioned in item "B": http://www.popcenter.org/library/awards/goldstein/2010/10-20(F).pdf

If anyone can host the Deed pdf file, let me know and I will provide it. The parcels listed on the deed are R72 00507 0073 through 0083, then 0085 through 0090. The deed is available on the Montgomery County Auditor's site.

**********

RECORDS REQUEST

Below, please consider the term “RTA” to mean “RTA”, “Greater Dayton Regional Transit Authority”, “Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority”, “Dayton RTA”, “Regional Transit Authority” or similar nomenclature.

The following attachments and link are referred to in, or are relevant to, this records request:

A) A pdf of the 2008 deed transferring all or part of the Wright Stop Plaza/Wright Transit Stop real estate (“property”) from the City of Dayton to the RTA, both of which, as noted in the deed, are political subdivisions of the State of Ohio. The same pdf contains a Development Agreement and two amendments to the Agreement.

On page 9 of the above described pdf, item G, “Ownership” says in part “Further, the deed shall provide that in the event the RTA (1) seeks to convey the Site or any portion thereof or interest therein to any third party or (2) vacates, abandons or ceases to use the Site for the purposes stated in this Agreement, then the City shall have the right to reenter and take possession of the Site and to terminate and revest in the City the estate conveyed by the deed from the City to the RTA.”

B) A pdf of the “Corner of Chaos” report, which on page 3, item 1(a) says (in reference to the Wright Stop Plaza); “Moved the venue from public domain to private property controlled by RTA”. (my bold)

C) A link to a December 2010 article in the e-newsletter of the COPS Office of the US Department of Justice, written by Dayton PD Lt. Larry Faulkner (one of the co-authors of the “Corner of Chaos” report), entitled Dayton Brings Order to “Corner of Chaos”. The article says in part:

“…Some of the most successful pieces of the new plan included:

- Moving the bus hub from the public street into a privately controlled environment, known as the Wright Stop Plaza;”

https://cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/De ... Dayton.asp


Under Ohio’s open records/Sunshine laws, please provide, for the period 12/1/2006 to 12/31/2011:

1) Electronic copies of all records wherein RTA discussed, sought, attempted to convey, or conveyed/transferred the Wright Stop Plaza real property, any portion thereof, or interest therein to any third party.

2) Electronic copies of all records wherein RTA discussed, sought, attempted, or actually vacated, abandoned, or ceased to use the Wright Stop Plaza for the purposes stated in the Development Agreement or its amendments.

3) Electronic copies of all records relevant to and/or documenting the conversion process of the Wright Stop Plaza real property to (as referenced in the “Corner of Chaos” report) “private property controlled by RTA”.

4) If no records exist in response to item #3 above, please cite the statutory authority or case law describing the process used or method relied upon by RTA to convert real public property to “private property controlled by RTA”.

5) Electronic copies of all records listing other real public property (ies) converted to or designated as private property controlled by RTA. If such a request is considered burdensome, simply acknowledge that other private property controlled by RTA exists.


Above, the term “private property controlled by RTA” should not be considered a limiting term. Regardless of the term(s) used, the records that are sought are those relevant to and/or documenting the re-designation of public property as private property.



Cordially,
me


http://www.mcrealestate.org/Main/Home.aspx (Montgomery County Auditor)
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Brief update

Postby BB62 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:36 pm

A few more records requests have been sent to the RTA, and some responses have been forthcoming. Mark Donaghy, the CEO, is apparently slow-walking the ones that hit the hardest, like "Tell me all about your 'private property controlled by RTA' hat trick."

I don't know whether the Board of Trustees is in involved, but I believe that Mr. Donaghy knows that his subterfuge and blatant dismissal of Ohio law is living on borrowed time.

For now, fellow gun owners and those who value civil rights - be patient. More will be posted as available and appropriate.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Brief update

Postby docachna » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:46 pm

BB62 wrote:A few more records requests have been sent to the RTA, and some responses have been forthcoming. Mark Donaghy, the CEO, is apparently slow-walking the ones that hit the hardest, like "Tell me all about your 'private property controlled by RTA' hat trick."

I don't know whether the Board of Trustees is in involved, but I believe that Mr. Donaghy knows that his subterfuge and blatant dismissal of Ohio law is living on borrowed time.

For now, fellow gun owners and those who value civil rights - be patient. More will be posted as available and appropriate.


If they continue their slothful responses, perhaps you can be the first known to experiment with the new avenue to enforcing Ohio's Open Records Act:
[url]


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88460[/url]
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Re: Brief update

Postby BB62 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:18 am

docachna wrote:If they continue their slothful responses, perhaps you can be the first known to experiment with the new avenue to enforcing Ohio's Open Records Act:
[url]

http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88460[/url]

I'm hopeful that the ongoing legal risk that RTA is taking will dawn upon Mr. Donaghy and make it unnecessary - but it's on my list. :wink:
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby docachna » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:47 pm

Now that that little matter of a Presidential election is concluded (at least for the time being)...........

any word from RTA ?
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby BB62 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:15 am

docachna wrote:Now that that little matter of a Presidential election is concluded (at least for the time being)...........

any word from RTA ?

Nothing new yet.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Oct 13 records request **FOLLOWUP**

Postby BB62 » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:31 pm

At 3:28 PM this afternoon I sent a note to Mr. Donaghy, RTA CEO, regarding a records request I made on Oct. 13.

The Oct 13 records request (as was the note today) was copied to the secretary of Dayton's Chief of Police, the Montgomery County Sheriff, the head of Dayton's Law Department and her subordinate, a Montgomery County prosecutor, the three Montgomery County Commissioners, and Kelly May - the reporter from Dayton channel 22/45.

Here's what I sent today:

Mr. Donaghy,

It’s been more than thirty days since I sent the records request below. I believe that 30 days is more than a reasonable amount of time to respond to my request.

Please let me know when my request will be filled.


Cordially,

me
******

From: me
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:39 PM
To: RTA's outside counsel
Cc: above identified people
Subject: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage

Mr. Hollingsworth,

Attached are pictures of three of the numerous posted signs claiming that the Wright Transit Stop (adjacent to RTA’s headquarters in downtown Dayton) is private property.

Also attached is the deed to the transfer of the land that makes up the transit stop, clearly identifying RTA as a political subdivision of the State of Ohio. As RTA’s outside counsel, I’m sure you know that political subdivisions don’t own *private* property. Coupled together with RTA’s dubious claim of apparent authority to regulate firearm carry, I’m sure you understand my ongoing skepticism.

Under Ohio’s open records laws please provide me the following:

1) Electronic copies of communications discussing designating (and/or whether or not to designate) the transit stop as private property, via various methods such as posting/painting of signage.

2) Electronic copies of communications/directives/memos etc. instructing an individual, department or entity to post or paint signage indicating/claiming that the Transit Stop is private property.

3) Electronic copies of communications to non-RTA entities indicating/claiming that the transit stop is private property.

4) Electronic copies of bills or other records which indicate/show the cost of the above described signage/postings/paintings/notifications.

Although I’ve only referenced the Wright Transit Stop in the above four requests, if communications/costs/etc. are found to be applicable to, or reference RTA’s similarly posted (as “private property”) transit stops/centers/parking areas/garages, etc, please include them in your response also.


Cordially,


me


http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2356.PDF (Rules of Road)

http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF (Code of Conduct)

http://www.mcohio.org/government/electe ... /index.php
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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