Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried guns

A sub-forum for the purpose of discussing ORC 9.68 compliance. This sub-forum is strictly for the discussion of progress in individual cities and their respective parks.

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried guns

Postby BB62 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:07 pm

>> Dayton public transit has a problem with **lawfully carried firearms**! <<

(and they don’t care about Ohio law)

Long story, short: for a couple of years, Dayton’s RTA (Regional Transit Authority) has ignored communications from both me and my Dayton friend Albert Cowlan (and others, I suspect) regarding firearm prohibitions in RTA’s “rules”. These prohibitions can be found in the RTA “Facilities Code of Conduct” and “Rules of the Road”.

Messages would be sent, but either nothing at all, or nothing responsive was forthcoming.

Fast forward to today. I found out that RTA was having a Board of Trustees meeting this afternoon, so I drove to Dayton and attended. I signed up to speak to the board, and told them that as a political subdivision, they had to comply with ORC 9.68, and the rest of Ohio’s gun laws, including those which allow people to carry a firearm outdoors on their public property, and those with a CHL to carry a firearm on their busses. (Oh, did I mention the signage outside the transit center which claimed it was “private property”?)

The President of the Board directed me to talk to the CEO Mark Donaghy, who I spoke to after the meeting. Regarding their “rules” against firearm carry, he stated that their “position” was that they were disallowed; essentially saying “So sue us!”. He also made it clear that he had received a number of communications over the years about their non-compliance with the law, but it sounded like they were round-filed. He was extremely arrogant.

Before leaving the RTA property, I asked an RTA “security” employee to summon the Dayton police, which he did, and we met outside. The young officer decided to play the role of an arrogant uninformed opinion enforcement officer, insisting among other things that RTA was PRIVATE property. The older LAW enforcement officer suggested I call a Dayton prosecutor whose number he supplied me with rather than returning to my car to retrieve my gun, and carrying on the property. I took him up on his suggestion, but before departing, I told the younger officer that I would make sure he and RTA was straightened out.

Updates will be posted as appropriate.


Link to RTA: http://www.i-riderta.org/

"Facilities Code of Conduct": http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF

"Rules of the Road": http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2356.PDF
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby westsidebestside » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:18 am

Sorry, not following the part about the police officer. What were you expecting him to do?
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby Javelin Man » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:18 am

I love a good fight! Especially when I know the outcome. Good luck, BB, we'll help where we can.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby someguy » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:59 am

If they claim to be private property we can even carry in the buildings they own without it being a felony right? Might be more of a risk than most of us want to take, but could help prove our point about statewide compliance.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby techguy85 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:35 am

Basically same story with COTA in columbus as well...
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby Suckerspawn » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:41 am

Maybe it's time to file suit with the City of Dayton as co-defendants. re: Dayton Municipal Code. Title XIII Sections 138.02, 138.04, 138.11, and 138.25
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby qmti » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:18 am

Suckerspawn wrote:Maybe it's time to file suit with the City of Dayton as co-defendants. re: Dayton Municipal Code. Title XIII Sections 138.02, 138.04, 138.11, and 138.25


Sad to say but this course of action will probably be the only way to settle this discrimination of lawful carry on the buses.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby JediSkipdogg » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:21 am

Suckerspawn wrote:Maybe it's time to file suit with the City of Dayton as co-defendants. re: Dayton Municipal Code. Title XIII Sections 138.02, 138.04, 138.11, and 138.25


While I agree, who is funding that? OFCC is currently in two appeal lawsuits (Oberlin and Cleveland) and both are costing quite a bit. If more donate, we could probably tackle more lawsuits but so far all expenses we have put forward we have eaten the cost of since we didn't "prevail" in either case.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby Brian D. » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:25 am

I wish that we were on such personally friendly terms with a state Representative or Senator that we could him/her to tag along for a meeting with the RTA honchos. Fun part would be not introducing the person as an Ohio legislator until the bus company took verbal swipes at the lack of enforcement "teeth" in ORC 9.68 and flat out refused to comply with it. Such an encounter could prove interesting. If anybody here is good enough friends with a pro-gun Rep or Senator like for example Bill Coley out of Middletown, and could bring him out to meet the Dayton RTA board, or COTA director in Columbus, "incognito" as I suggested, I'll tag along and buy both of you lunch.
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Note to RTA's counsel

Postby BB62 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:15 am

Mr. Hollingsworth,

I'm directing my communications to you because Mr. Donaghy told me that anything sent to him on the subject matter I raised at the BoT meeting would be forwarded to you.

Based on my brief conversation with him yesterday, and my own experiences with RTA regarding the matter, I've concluded the following: the mindset of "It's our policy" and a certain amount of arrogance that "We know best" is felt to trump settled Ohio law.

Of course, since you're new to RTA, I blame none of this on you; but you now have the opportunity to set things right before lots of needless time and expense is involved defending the indefensible.

I've copied into this e-mail two attorneys from the City of Cincinnati, with whom I've corresponded recently on similar subject matter. I urge you to speak with them.

You and I both know that the Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority (RTA) is a political subdivision. As such, the RTA is subject to ORC 9.68, Ohio's firearm preemption law. Here's a link to it: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68 You'll note that part of it allows for the award of costs and reasonable attorney fees to successful challengers.

ORC 9.68 has been upheld and/or referenced in two cases which went to the Ohio Supreme Court: Cleveland v State, and Ohioans for Concealed Carry v Clyde. I urge you to read them.

Finally, here is a link to the Ohio Attorney General's Concealed Carry Handbook: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/File ... anual-(PDF) I urge you to read it.

Afterwards, and at a minimum, RTA needs to do the following:

1) Stop claiming that public property, open to the public, is private property
2) Modify the "Rules of the Road" and "Facilities Code of Conduct" so that they are in compliance with Ohio law
3) Re-train its employees on the above facts
4) Recognize that with a valid Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun, or its equivalent, one may carry a loaded handgun, concealed or openly, on RTA buses & trolleys
5) Recognize that with a valid Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun, or its equivalent, one may carry a loaded handgun concealed on RTA grounds & parking lots
6) Recognize that an individual not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm may carry it openly on RTA grounds & parking lots


As as attorney in a position of what I understand to be RTA's outside counsel, you have an obligation, through your oath, to ensure that RTA complies with all state, Federal, and local laws, and that RTA policies/rules/etc. conform to those laws.

I look forward to your prompt reply.


Cordially,
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Open records request

Postby BB62 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:20 am

Mr. Hollingsworth,

It was nice to meet you yesterday at the Board of Trustees meeting.

Yesterday Mr. Donaghy acknowledged receiving, directly or indirectly, a number of communications regarding RTA's firearms/weapons policies. I suspect that those he received, directly or indirectly, pointed out that RTA's policies on the matter were not/are not in compliance with Ohio law.

Based on my personal experience with RTA and those which have been reported to me, I've gotten the distinct impression that responses on that subject matter, IF they were sent, involve repeating the phrase "Our policy is...".

Pursuant to Ohio's Sunshine Law, please supply me with:

1) Electronic copies of all communications received or transmitted since 12/31/2013 which reference or question RTA's firearms and/or weapons prohibitions - in general or as referenced in RTA's "Rules of the Road", "Facilities Code of Conduct", or their predecessors.

2) Documentation indicating the names & e-mail addresses of RTA's board members


Item #1 above should be understood to include internal communications also.

If you have questions about this request, don't hesitate to call.



Cordially,

me



http://www.i-riderta.org/


"Rules of the Road": http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2356.PDF

15) Customers may not carry onto an RTA vehicle any item, which could cause injury or damage to RTA riders or property including firearms, knives or such hazardous materials as gasoline, propane tanks or car batteries.


Facilities Code of Conduct: http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF

"While on RTA property, you are prohibited from:

1) Carrying or possessing weapons of any kind, including weapons carried pursuant to a valid license."
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby BB62 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:26 am

Brian D. wrote:I wish that we were on such personally friendly terms with a state Representative or Senator that we could him/her to tag along for a meeting with the RTA honchos. Fun part would be not introducing the person as an Ohio legislator until the bus company took verbal swipes at the lack of enforcement "teeth" in ORC 9.68 and flat out refused to comply with it. Such an encounter could prove interesting. If anybody here is good enough friends with a pro-gun Rep or Senator like for example Bill Coley out of Middletown, and could bring him out to meet the Dayton RTA board, or COTA director in Columbus, "incognito" as I suggested, I'll tag along and buy both of you lunch.

Great idea.

Methinks that once I get copies of the communications sent to the RTA regarding their non-compliance with Ohio law, and their responses (if any), it would be great material to demonstrate their arrogance, not unlike the arrogance of RTA's CEO yesterday regarding their "position" versus Ohio law.

I'll make sure you get copies.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby Brian D. » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:21 am

You know, this reminds me of something: Here in Cincinnati I've been meaning to eyeball the new streetcars downtown to make sure the city and SORTA haven't crawfished and posted the things with 'No guns' signs or posted rules to that effect at the outdoor platforms/stations. I'll only mention this again if there's an issue, and in a separate discussion so as not to bollix up this thread.
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Re: Dayton public transit (RTA) dislikes lawfully carried gu

Postby ArmedAviator » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:30 am

Wait, carrying a gun is legal on RTA?

For some reason, I thought it was a no-no. Interadesting.
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Re: Note to RTA's counsel

Postby pirateguy191 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:35 am

BB62 wrote:Mr. Hollingsworth,

I'm directing my communications to you because Mr. Donaghy told me that anything sent to him on the subject matter I raised at the BoT meeting would be forwarded to you.

Based on my brief conversation with him yesterday, and my own experiences with RTA regarding the matter, I've concluded the following: the mindset of "It's our policy" and a certain amount of arrogance that "We know best" is felt to trump settled Ohio law.

Of course, since you're new to RTA, I blame none of this on you; but you now have the opportunity to set things right before lots of needless time and expense is involved defending the indefensible.

I've copied into this e-mail two attorneys from the City of Cincinnati, with whom I've corresponded recently on similar subject matter. I urge you to speak with them.

You and I both know that the Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority (RTA) is a political subdivision. As such, the RTA is subject to ORC 9.68, Ohio's firearm preemption law. Here's a link to it: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68 You'll note that part of it allows for the award of costs and reasonable attorney fees to successful challengers.

ORC 9.68 has been upheld and/or referenced in two cases which went to the Ohio Supreme Court: Cleveland v State, and Ohioans for Concealed Carry v Clyde. I urge you to read them.

Finally, here is a link to the Ohio Attorney General's Concealed Carry Handbook: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/File ... anual-(PDF) I urge you to read it.

Afterwards, and at a minimum, RTA needs to do the following:

1) Stop claiming that public property, open to the public, is private property
2) Modify the "Rules of the Road" and "Facilities Code of Conduct" so that they are in compliance with Ohio law
3) Re-train its employees on the above facts
4) Recognize that with a valid Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun, or its equivalent, one may carry a loaded handgun, concealed or openly, on RTA buses & trolleys
5) Recognize that with a valid Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun, or its equivalent, one may carry a loaded handgun concealed on RTA grounds & parking lots
6) Recognize that an individual not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm may carry it openly on RTA grounds & parking lots


As as attorney in a position of what I understand to be RTA's outside counsel, you have an obligation, through your oath, to ensure that RTA complies with all state, Federal, and local laws, and that RTA policies/rules/etc. conform to those laws.

I look forward to your prompt reply.


Cordially,
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