Stark Co. fair posted......again.

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby docachna » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:26 pm

JustaShooter wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I owe a return call to Howard Call, the executive director of the Ohio Fair Managers Association. It was suggested by one of the recently contacted ag societies that letting the Association know about R.C. 9.68 would be an effective way to get the information out to everyone. This could potentially be a way to get that info out in an ongoing manner so we don't have to keep fighting this issue every time a new group of fair board members gets elected.

Once I've talked to the director, I'll start a topic about it.

Something that should be a part of that education in my opinion would be the distinction between shelters, buildings, and actual government facilities so they only post the correct facilities. They are going to have to work pretty hard to convince me that those barns, even the fancy ones with concrete floors, are anything other than shelters no matter what they are used for during the fair...


Seems to me it might be fruitful to offer to work with the OFMA to develop informational bulletins for them to their members, breaking down the law into easily digestible snippets ("Where may firearms be banned ? Where may firearms not be banned ?", etc.). I do NOT think it's wise to offer to help develop signs, as I think that would encourage posting. I think it's enough that we offer to clarify THE LAW to them, and help them convey this to their members.

If they reject our assistance, hey, we tried, but don't gripe if you get a bunch of......folks open-carrying at numerous fairs next year where a problem is perceived. :twisted:
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby JustaShooter » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:32 pm

docachna wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I owe a return call to Howard Call, the executive director of the Ohio Fair Managers Association. It was suggested by one of the recently contacted ag societies that letting the Association know about R.C. 9.68 would be an effective way to get the information out to everyone. This could potentially be a way to get that info out in an ongoing manner so we don't have to keep fighting this issue every time a new group of fair board members gets elected.

Once I've talked to the director, I'll start a topic about it.

Something that should be a part of that education in my opinion would be the distinction between shelters, buildings, and actual government facilities so they only post the correct facilities. They are going to have to work pretty hard to convince me that those barns, even the fancy ones with concrete floors, are anything other than shelters no matter what they are used for during the fair...


Seems to me it might be fruitful to offer to work with the OFMA to develop informational bulletins for them to their members, breaking down the law into easily digestible snippets ("Where may firearms be banned ? Where may firearms not be banned ?", etc.). I do NOT think it's wise to offer to help develop signs, as I think that would encourage posting. I think it's enough that we offer to clarify THE LAW to them, and help them convey this to their members.

If they reject our assistance, hey, we tried, but don't gripe if you get a bunch of......folks open-carrying at numerous fairs next year where a problem is perceived. :twisted:

I understand what you are saying, but the way I understand the law, they can *only* post government facilities, and they are *required* to post government facilities - and since you break the law carrying into a government facility *whether it is posted or not*, I have no problem making sure those buildings that qualify as government facilities are actually properly posted - and nothing else.
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:34 pm

It's a freaking mess, the way the laws are written, neither they or we really know which buildings really "should"(?) be posted regarding the laws a written, (none in my opinion should be posted).
It's really a hard problem to fix until the laws are cleaned up regarding the definition of "gov. buildings"
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:57 pm

3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:It's a freaking mess, the way the laws are written, neither they or we really know which buildings really "should"(?) be posted regarding the laws a written, (none in my opinion should be posted).
It's really a hard problem to fix until the laws are cleaned up regarding the definition of "gov. buildings"



If it's a building owned by a government, it's a government building. :P

Our problem is in the lack of specificity of the exemptions: "used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility"

Both "primarily" and "shelter" are problematic.

I've never had anyone argue that a building with open sides is just a shelter. No problem there.

But most of the buildings on fairgrounds are barns and storage buildings. :?: Are those 'shelters'?

A barn is a shelter for livestock, right?

And if you lease space in a storage building for RV or boat storage when the fair isn't running (11 months out of 12), is that 'primarily a parking facility for motor vehicles'?
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby Brian D. » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:59 pm

3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:It's a freaking mess, the way the laws are written, neither they or we really know which buildings really "should"(?) be posted regarding the laws a written, (none in my opinion should be posted).
It's really a hard problem to fix until the laws are cleaned up regarding the definition of "gov. buildings"


That lack of definition has plagued us for years. Before rest areas became okay for carry, even the older sites with port-o-lets or pit toilets may have been "government buildings", at least ODOT seemed to think so. As I once told a former head of that agency, "You may have a point. Sure smells like government business is being conducted there."

My sense of humor doesn't get the same warm reception in Columbus as on these forums, that much I learned long ago. Whether talking about an outhouse, or while at the Statehouse.

I see that MWSY has made the same point, from a different angle, directly above.
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby kentman » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:53 pm

I spoke with one of the higher ups who was there about the person open carrying in the grandstand. The problem is, that they don't actually know if it's allowed or not.

As it's been stated here repeatedly, there is all sorts of ambiguity about the definitions. In this case, it would be the definition of an open aired shelter or arena.

They are just as scared of becoming a test case as a gun rights activist is. I believe they are contacting the attorney general about this specific problem to get clarity and direction.

Am I happy they asked/suggested someone to disarm? No. But I can at least give them credit for seeking out the correct response for the future.
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:42 pm

kentman wrote:I spoke with one of the higher ups who was there about the person open carrying in the grandstand. The problem is, that they don't actually know if it's allowed or not.

As it's been stated here repeatedly, there is all sorts of ambiguity about the definitions. In this case, it would be the definition of an open aired shelter or arena.

They are just as scared of becoming a test case as a gun rights activist is. I believe they are contacting the attorney general about this specific problem to get clarity and direction.

Am I happy they asked/suggested someone to disarm? No. But I can at least give them credit for seeking out the correct response for the future.


Who was the "higher up" you spoke too......a police officer......one of the officers that delt with the guy in the stands?

I'll be sending you a pm.
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby kentman » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:51 pm

3FULLMAGS+1 wrote: I'll be sending you a pm.


Got it

The incident I was speaking of involved a person in the grandstands being asked to take it to their vehicle. The supervisor I spoke with was directly involved, said the man was very nice and respectful, which went a long ways with him.

He did admit though that they weren't sure about the legalities, and was quite relieved the gentleman was so accommodating to their concerns.

I hope this gets squared away before next year.
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby Werz » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:37 pm

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:It's a freaking mess, the way the laws are written, neither they or we really know which buildings really "should"(?) be posted regarding the laws a written, (none in my opinion should be posted).
It's really a hard problem to fix until the laws are cleaned up regarding the definition of "gov. buildings"

If it's a building owned by a government, it's a government building. :P

Our problem is in the lack of specificity of the exemptions: "used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility"

Both "primarily" and "shelter" are problematic.

I've never had anyone argue that a building with open sides is just a shelter. No problem there.

But most of the buildings on fairgrounds are barns and storage buildings. :?: Are those 'shelters'?

A barn is a shelter for livestock, right?

And if you lease space in a storage building for RV or boat storage when the fair isn't running (11 months out of 12), is that 'primarily a parking facility for motor vehicles'?

Grandstands can be very tricky. For instance, the one at our county fair ...

The entertainment seating? Wide open and definitely not a "government facility." The permanent space under the grandstand which is largely enclosed and somewhat frequently used? Maybe. The closed and locked office of the fair board under the grandstand, which is used year 'round? Definitely a place where "employees of the government of this state or the political subdivision regularly are present for the purpose of performing their official duties."
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Re: Stark Co. fair posted......again.

Postby concreteguy » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:11 am

If it is really a building, it should have an "Occupancy Permit". You know, that sign on the wall you really only notice when you're elbow to elbow and wondering if i.e. "dinner here is worth the wait". I would bet most barns don't meet code for the general public.
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