Perry Park
Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators
Forum rules
This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.
READ THIS BEFORE POSTING
This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.
READ THIS BEFORE POSTING
- WY_Not
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 2435
- Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 10:15 pm
- Location: Miami County, OH
- Contact:
Re: Perry Park
I'm a technical writer and you two and this law are making even my head spin.
Learn how Project Appleseed is supporting freedom through Marksmanship and Heritage clinics.
Samuel Adams wrote:If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
- Werz
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 5506
- Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am
Re: Perry Park
I have learned that there's no sense in arguing with him when he gets like this. If he wants to go into a township park and squeeze off a couple of rounds, so be it.WY_Not wrote:I'm a technical writer and you two and this law are making even my head spin.
Naturally, he will respond to that with the same old quip. And he knows that's a safe bet because nobody is going to fund stupidity.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- WY_Not
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 2435
- Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 10:15 pm
- Location: Miami County, OH
- Contact:
Re: Perry Park
Personally, I don't think laws should be written up by lawyers. They can come up with the laws but the text of the laws should be required to be written by an elementary school student and understandable by same.
The dangerous part of getting technical on the specs, such as is there a comma between this section and that, is that those things change. Some schools of grammar require that comma to be used in a list after the word "and" or "or". Other schools of grammar say it is optional.
The dangerous part of getting technical on the specs, such as is there a comma between this section and that, is that those things change. Some schools of grammar require that comma to be used in a list after the word "and" or "or". Other schools of grammar say it is optional.
Learn how Project Appleseed is supporting freedom through Marksmanship and Heritage clinics.
Samuel Adams wrote:If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
- Klingon00
- Posts: 3825
- Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:47 am
- Location: Columbus, OH
Re: Perry Park
However, just because the stakes are too high for anyone to want to take that bet, it doesn't necessarily mean that MWSY would be in the wrong, unless medieval style trial by combat is now a legally recognized way to settle this.Werz wrote: Naturally, he will respond to that with the same old quip. And he knows that's a safe bet because nobody is going to fund stupidity.
Until it gets tried in court of law, I'm not seeing an easy way to resolve this argument. That said, I'll personally be avoiding discharging my firearm in a township park just in case.
- MyWifeSaidYes
- OFCC Coordinator
- Posts: 5449
- Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
- Location: Central Ohio
- Contact:
Re: Perry Park
Werz wrote:I have learned that there's no sense in arguing with him when he gets like this.WY_Not wrote:I'm a technical writer and you two and this law are making even my head spin.
Yes, I will respond thusly.Werz wrote:If he wants to go into a township park and squeeze off a couple of rounds, so be it.
Naturally, he will respond to that with the same old quip. And he knows that's a safe bet because nobody is going to fund stupidity.
And yes, I'm quite serious about the offer Werz has linked to:
But for now, let's get back to the thread topic.MyWifeSaidYes wrote: Always interested in being a test case.
Just need someone else to pick up the legal tab.
MyWifeSaidYes
- Werz
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 5506
- Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am
Re: Perry Park
Regarding the Oxford comma, did you read my footnote here?WY_Not wrote:Personally, I don't think laws should be written up by lawyers. They can come up with the laws but the text of the laws should be required to be written by an elementary school student and understandable by same.
The dangerous part of getting technical on the specs, such as is there a comma between this section and that, is that those things change. Some schools of grammar require that comma to be used in a list after the word "and" or "or". Other schools of grammar say it is optional.
As to comprehension by elementary school students, you could provide that provision of law to most 6th graders, and they could describe the places where you cannot shoot a gun. The problem arises with people who want to play word games and contravene common sense by saying, "Well, you could interpret it this way ..." And MyWifeSaidYes will always base the credibility of his belief on a fantasy, i.e., that someone else will pay his legal fees if he tests the legality. Uh-huh. And I will drive a Ferrari to work every day ... if somebody else pays for it.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-
- OFCC Member
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:55 pm
- Location: West Mansfield
Re: Perry Park
OK, I am going to the Perry Township meeting tonight to discuss the sign they have illegally posted at their park. I will NOT be discussing weather or not it is legal to discharge a firearm in their park. My question is this, I am not sure if the township meeting hall is posted, is it presumed to be a CPZ because it it is a government office?
- BobK
- Posts: 15602
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:26 pm
- Location: Houston TX (formerly Franklin County)
Re: Perry Park
Whether it is posted or not, it is still government property and it is illegal to carry there per RC 2923.126(B)(9).scorchedtrumpet wrote:My question is this, I am not sure if the township meeting hall is posted, is it presumed to be a CPZ because it it is a government office?
If it is unposted, then the township is violating RC 2923.1212(A)(9), but posted or unposted, it is still illegal to carry.(B) . . . A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:
(9) Any building that is a government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of this section;
I am a: NRA Life Member, Texas State Rifle Association Life Member, Texas Firearms Coalition Gold member, OFCC Patron Member, former JFPO member (pre-SAF).
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
-
- OFCC Member
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:55 pm
- Location: West Mansfield
Re: Perry Park
Bobk, I understand RC 2923.126(B)(9), I guess what I was trying to ask is a Township meeting hall a government building.
I did attend the Perry Township meeting (unarmed). They reiterated to me that the only reason they put the sign up was to stop some punk kids from shooting BB guns in the park. They looked into other townships that tried to challenge ORC 9.68 and realized there is no point in challenging it for the sake of a couple of bad apples. So the sign was taken down prior to the meeting. One woman suggested to put up a sign that says "don't be a dumb butt" in reference to the BB gun use. They reassured me that they are all pro second amendment and that the majority of them have a CHL. So I guess we chalk that up to a win.
There was a comment made that the city of Bellefontaine has an ordnance prohibiting OPEN carry. I was not sure if this was true, or legal so I did not make comment on it. I have since tried to find out if open carry is prohibited in Bellefontaine, but have not been able to find anything to support that.
I did attend the Perry Township meeting (unarmed). They reiterated to me that the only reason they put the sign up was to stop some punk kids from shooting BB guns in the park. They looked into other townships that tried to challenge ORC 9.68 and realized there is no point in challenging it for the sake of a couple of bad apples. So the sign was taken down prior to the meeting. One woman suggested to put up a sign that says "don't be a dumb butt" in reference to the BB gun use. They reassured me that they are all pro second amendment and that the majority of them have a CHL. So I guess we chalk that up to a win.
There was a comment made that the city of Bellefontaine has an ordnance prohibiting OPEN carry. I was not sure if this was true, or legal so I did not make comment on it. I have since tried to find out if open carry is prohibited in Bellefontaine, but have not been able to find anything to support that.
- BobK
- Posts: 15602
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:26 pm
- Location: Houston TX (formerly Franklin County)
Re: Perry Park
Yes.scorchedtrumpet wrote:Bobk, I understand RC 2923.126(B)(9), I guess what I was trying to ask is a Township meeting hall a government building.
I am a: NRA Life Member, Texas State Rifle Association Life Member, Texas Firearms Coalition Gold member, OFCC Patron Member, former JFPO member (pre-SAF).
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
- Werz
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 5506
- Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am
Re: Perry Park
I beg to differ, Bob. It is unlawful only to carry concealed in such a government facility. Under R.C. 2923.126(B)(9), there is no prohibition against open carry.*BobK wrote:Whether it is posted or not, it is still government property and it is illegal to carry there per RC 2923.126(B)(9).scorchedtrumpet wrote:My question is this, I am not sure if the township meeting hall is posted, is it presumed to be a CPZ because it it is a government office?
Now, if the premises are posted pursuant to R.C. 2923.1212, regardless of what novel interpretations some may have, a person could be charged with Criminal Trespass, even for carrying a firearm openly. However, if the township makes a conscious decision not to post the premises, and to allow open carry, there is nothing anyone can do about it. There is no penalty for the township declining to post those premises. Some may argue that the township takes a chance in doing so because they might lose their immunity R.C. 2923.126(C)(2)(b). However, that is counteracted by R.C. 2744.02(B)(5):
Simply put, a township cannot be compelled to allow open carry in a township hall. However, if they do allow it, I do not believe they can be prohibited from doing so.Civil liability shall not be construed to exist under another section of the Revised Code merely because that section imposes a responsibility or mandatory duty upon a political subdivision, *** or because that section uses the term "shall" in a provision pertaining to a political subdivision.
* Of course, this does not apply to schools, courthouses, and other government facilities which have specifically designated prohibitions under Ohio statute.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- BobK
- Posts: 15602
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:26 pm
- Location: Houston TX (formerly Franklin County)
Re: Perry Park
I agree with your analysis. I blazed right past the open carry issue and was answering from a concealed carry mindset.Werz wrote:It is unlawful only to carry concealed in such a government facility. Under R.C. 2923.126(B)(9), there is no prohibition against open carry.*
I am a: NRA Life Member, Texas State Rifle Association Life Member, Texas Firearms Coalition Gold member, OFCC Patron Member, former JFPO member (pre-SAF).
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
- Werz
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 5506
- Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am
Re: Perry Park
It is rumored that some townships actually permit open carry in "government facilities."BobK wrote:I agree with your analysis. I blazed right past the open carry issue and was answering from a concealed carry mindset.Werz wrote:It is unlawful only to carry concealed in such a government facility. Under R.C. 2923.126(B)(9), there is no prohibition against open carry.*
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- MyWifeSaidYes
- OFCC Coordinator
- Posts: 5449
- Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
- Location: Central Ohio
- Contact:
Re: Perry Park
scorchedtrumpet wrote:...There was a comment made that the city of Bellefontaine has an ordnance prohibiting OPEN carry. I was not sure if this was true, or legal so I did not make comment on it. I have since tried to find out if open carry is prohibited in Bellefontaine, but have not been able to find anything to support that.
While their ordinance 549.11 only restricts the carry of weapons intended to be used "illegally", it IS still a violation of R.C. 9.68.
549.11 UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF CERTAIN WEAPONS.
(a) No person shall carry or possess on the public streets or public sidewalks or in any public park or square or in any other public place any object intended to be used as a weapon against any person or property illegally, including, but not limited to, firearms, bows and arrows, air rifles, slingshots, knives, razors, broken bottles, fire bombs, missiles of any kind, clubs, blackjacks, billies, chains or similar items.
(b) This section does not apply to law enforcement officers authorized to carry such weapons and acting within the scope of their duties.
(c) Whoever violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree.
(Ord. 74-71. Passed 9-24-74.)
MyWifeSaidYes
- djthomas
- Posts: 5961
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:09 am
Re: Perry Park
Nor is there a penalty for deviating from the prescribed language of 2923.1212 but posting a sign anyway. The Columbus Convention Center is such an example. Last time I was there their doors were posted with something like No Concealed Weapons allowed, unless otherwise authorized by law.Werz wrote:Now, if the premises are posted pursuant to R.C. 2923.1212, regardless of what novel interpretations some may have, a person could be charged with Criminal Trespass, even for carrying a firearm openly. However, if the township makes a conscious decision not to post the premises, and to allow open carry, there is nothing anyone can do about it. There is no penalty for the township declining to post those premises.
I didn't think anything of it until a session late in the afternoon where Jonathan Fulkerson was speaking and he pointed out the distinct wording and said "so yeah, technically, someone could open carry a handgun in here (amusing, of course, in a room with probably 300 attendees and 295 handguns). I'm sure it's not what the city intended when they put those signs up but they don't get in trouble for failing to post or posting the wrong sign even though the law says they have to put a sign up."