Need Your Help with Midway USA

[MikeT]

Recently went to order several items from Midway, including 20 and 30 round magazines. The on-line and phone ordering systems would not let me order them. My zip code is a Dayton one. I just sent an e-mail directly to Larry Potterfield pointing out ORC 9.68. I'd like as many folks as possible to e-mail Mr. Potterfield directly (larrypotterfield@midwayusa.com) complaining about their outdated policy. Perhaps we should even threaten a boycott of Midway, like the UDF boycott. Thanks for your help.

[Brian D.]

This has been a sore subject for us in Ohio many years running now. Several of these companies will NOT change their shipping policies until the BATFE updates the information they supply to FFL holders, firearms and ammunition manufacturers, etc. These companies employ lawyers who, short of a CEO telling them to pound sand, will continue to advise their clients not to veer from those published BATFE guidelines.

Midway USA is a pretty staunch 2nd Amendment ally, I don't think we should stop patronizing them. "But Brian D...." you say ..."how am I supposed to get my magazines?" Fair enough question. What some of us have done is have them shipped to a non-prohibited zip code, which may be someplace outside the city limits of Ohio's major metro areas. Or, depending on the vendor, you may have to have them sent to a friend in a "non-prohibited" state, who can then send them along or whatever. Yes, this sucks. Hence the consistent lack of love towards the BATF***ers in Washington D.C. shown by many on forums like ours.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Please don't harass Larry.

BrianD is correct in that an FFL must defer to the list of "restricted cities" published by the BATFE.

The BATFE has not updated this list in many years and do not appear to do so anytime soon. This is simply a passive method of gun control.

Call the BATFE and tell THEM to update the list.

[BobK]

I do not blame MidwayUSA at all. Your problem is 100% local. Until the local laws are fixed, nothing else can get done.

See, the local laws across the United States are collected into one reference by the BATF***ers. Then the BATF***ers compile them into a master reference document used by all kinds of companies to maintain compliance.

It is not reasonable to expect private companies to perform a legal analysis and conclusion for local and state laws by zipcode. It is not reasonable to expect MidwyUSA or any other private company to ignore published BATF***er guidance.

It is not reasonable for BATF**er staff to perform a legal analysis and conclusion based on conflicts between state and local laws. I disagree with Brian and MWSY on this point. Trying to get the BATF***ers to change as long as there are conflicting local and state laws is an utter waste of time.

It is very reasonable to expect Dayton to comply with Ohio law. That is where the crux of the problem lies and that is the only way to get all the downstream effects fixed.

[djthomas]

That's very interesting because just yesterday I went online and ordered two 40 round AR mags with standard shipping and the expected delivery date was 3/23. It didn't give me any grief and when I got home from work I already had an email telling me everything had shipped. The tracking number shows that UPS has my package and it is indeed expected here Monday.

Sounds like their system is just keying off of the specific municipal limits and not the overall state limit.

[djthomas]

It is not reasonable for BATF**er staff to perform a legal analysis and conclusion based on conflicts between state and local laws. I disagree with Brian and MWSY on this point. Trying to get the BATF***ers to change as long as there are conflicting local and state laws is an utter waste of time.

It is very reasonable to expect Dayton to comply with Ohio law. That is where the crux of the problem lies and that is the only way to get all the downstream effects fixed.

But Bob - the BATFE already does that. Or at least did in the last version of the guide, the 2010-2011 version. They specifically say that they have included pertinent municipal ordinances where the state doesn't have preemption. Since ignorance of the law is no excuse I'm quite sure that if BATFE got wind of an FFL selling something contrary to current law that was OK in the 2010-2011 book (like say, violating the NY Safe Act) they would come down hard and say that the FFL couldn't use the ATF's outdated book as a defense.

And to your second point, even if Dayton did repeal their laws the ATF's guide would still show the old, unrepealed law so we'd still be in the same position. If dealers are relying on that book then nothing will change.

On a related note, I emailed LaRue Tactical about something else last month and mentioned how our mag limit was going away (since LaRue does sell mags). The sales gal that replied back said just get us the info and assuming it pans out we'll pull Ohio off the list of restricted states.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Oh, snap.

I did NOT realize that Dayton had not repealed or amended their ordinances.

Time for me to become a disruptive influence in western Ohio.

Any decent restaurants in Dayton? Failing that, any pizza buffets?

[gfrlaser]

Any decent restaurants in Dayton? Failing that, any pizza buffets?

We have lots of very nice resturants! For pizza, if you like them bufffet style, CiCi's.

[xd9allthetime]

Couldn't agree with you more about the frustration of being denied something you're legally allowed to have. Was there a special deal on Midway you were shooting for? We do have quite a few fine gun shops in Dayton, Fairborn, Vandalia, and Tipp City which would carry the 20 and 30 rd pmags. You would be able to make your purchases there with no problems and be supporting our local gun shop owners. I'm all for saving a few bucks here and there but also like having local gun shops to visit.

[Brian D.]

BobK, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I fail to understand what part of Ohio's statewide preemption law the BATFE does not grasp, assuming they compile both local AND state laws.

[BobK]

BobK, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I fail to understand what part of Ohio's statewide preemption law the BATFE does not grasp, assuming they compile both local AND state laws.

It isn't their job to interpret the laws, just compile them and post them.

[djthomas]

It isn't their job to interpret the laws, just compile them and post them.

Which, I might add, they have failed to do for the last five years despite a federal regulation requiring that they do so.

[MikeT]

I am not aware that Midway is an FFL. I have not seen them advertise any firearms that require an FFL. So I do not understand how BATFE regulations or guidance matters.

As to the magazines, try finding a 20 rd AR-15 magazines in Dayton. I shoot NRA and CMP service rifle. Most shooters use 20-rd magazines because of the clearance when shooting prone and you only need to load eight rds for rapid fire. The rules require 20 rd mags to be straight.

I realize the Potterfields are strong second amendment supporters, so I would hope they would change their policy. At this point, all I am asking is that Ohioans e-mail Midway asking them to change their policy. Many other online retailers will ship magazine to me, Brownells to name one, so way can't Midway.

By the way much of the "Dayton" zip codes are outside the city limits and do not fall under the city's laws.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...I realize the Potterfields are strong second amendment supporters, so I would hope they would change their policy...

But you are missing the point.

As long as Dayton is publishing bad ordinances, there is NOTHING that will cause MidwayUSA to change.

IF the only reason MidwayUSA won't ship to Dayton is because of DAYTON'S ILLEGAL ORDINANCES, then Dayton is the entity that needs to change.

If you live within Dayton city limits, you have attempted to engage in legal commerce by having something shipped to your Dayton address and the ILLEGAL ORDINANCES are INTERFERING with that commerce by merely EXISTING (they don't have to be enforced), I would think you are in a good position to file a lawsuit against the City of Dayton.

You probably wouldn't win any damages as your "harm" is that you were unable to spend your money, but you could/should prevail on 9.68...which would pay attorney fees and costs.

Without committing you to anything, I would like to mention your situation to the Dayton law director next week, if you don't mind. I won't use your name.

[MikeT]

...I realize the Potterfields are strong second amendment supporters, so I would hope they would change their policy...

But you are missing the point.

As long as Dayton is publishing bad ordinances, there is NOTHING that will cause MidwayUSA to change.

IF the only reason MidwayUSA won't ship to Dayton is because of DAYTON'S ILLEGAL ORDINANCES, then Dayton is the entity that needs to change.

If you live within Dayton city limits, you have attempted to engage in legal commerce by having something shipped to your Dayton address and the ILLEGAL ORDINANCES are INTERFERING with that commerce by merely EXISTING (they don't have to be enforced), I would think you are in a good position to file a lawsuit against the City of Dayton.

You probably wouldn't win any damages as your "harm" is that you were unable to spend your money, but you could/should prevail on 9.68...which would pay attorney fees and costs.

Without committing you to anything, I would like to mention your situation to the Dayton law director next week, if you don't mind. I won't use your name.

Not sure how I'm missing the point. Midway has a staff of lawyers that can research the law. Many other mail order company can and do ship 20 and 30 round magazines to my address (just order them from Brownells and they shipped today). If the Dayton ordinances are the problem, how can they do that???

As to changing the Dayton ordinances, as I stated earlier, I do not live in the City of Dayton (thank God!), I live in one of the townships. My zip code is one the Dayton Post Office (454xx) zip codes.

Feel free to mention this to the Dayton law director, though I doubt you will get very far.