Oberlin update...

A sub-forum for the purpose of discussing ORC 9.68 compliance. This sub-forum is strictly for the discussion of progress in individual cities and their respective parks.

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Morne
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by Morne »

We are considering all options about an appeal.
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by BriKuz »

Morne wrote:We are considering all options about an appeal.
what morne said... won't comment more until we see where we're going.
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by Werz »

Maybe this will result in another open carry event in Oberlin.

People need to comprehend what open carry events are really about. I think a lot of folks believe that an open carry event is [1] a social event, [2] an opportunity to be a "rebel," and [3] a chance to show off one's coolest guns. Yes, such events do serve those purposes. But none of that is the real purpose.

An open carry event is an opportunity to demonstrate to the public - that's the public, not the government - what is actually legal. It is then the responsibility of the public - those both "for" and "against" - to approach their government and say, "Why do imply this is against the law when it is not, and when you cannot do anything to stop it?" The government already knows that open carry is lawful; it just doesn't want the public to believe that. The real purpose of an open carry event is to preach to the public and embarrass the government.
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Werz wrote:An open carry event is an opportunity to demonstrate to the public - that's the public, not the government - what is actually legal. It is then the responsibility of the public - those both "for" and "against" - to approach their government and say, "Why do imply this is against the law when it is not, and when you cannot do anything to stop it?" The government already knows that open carry is lawful; it just doesn't want the public to believe that. The real purpose of an open carry event is to preach to the public and embarrass the government.
The problem though is it can backfire under current law and Oberlin has openly said in council meetings (prior to the lawsuit) that they would look into those areas. I'm referring to what Franklin Ohio City Parks is considering. Franklin isn't simply looking at leasing the parks to a private entity, which would result in nothing more than misdemeanor trespass, they are looking at leasing them to a school board, which makes it a felony school zone.

I think if Oberlin residents cared, they would have effected some change in the course of the lawsuit. Unfortunately, they have done nothing in that time and are happy with what Oberlin has done. I'm 50/50 but more 51/49 that right now an OC event would not be wise in Oberlin. I think the battle for that is at the statehouse and this case along with Franklin Parks are two keys on why it should be changed that government can't lease their areas out and make them no carry zones.
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by Brian D. »

Jedi as long as we have a good turnout even a hippie dippy town like Oberlin will not send their police to bother much less arrest legally armed people in their park.
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by djthomas »

docachna wrote:In the sterile atmosphere of a law office or a Court of Appeals, I can see the attractiveness of this. "We're not outlawing ALL firearm possession - we're only outlawing UNLAWFUL firearm possession. It's perfectly lawful for OLTCACH licensees to carry concealed, and it's perfectly lawful for anybody who can possession a weapon to OC. Therefore, the ordinance is not in conflict with 9.68.."

But what about Barn and Ang out on the beat, that don't read it right ??? There's the problem, and there's what (I would guess) was the thrust of the suit. Maybe the opinion is well enough detailed it will deter Oberlin from trying to bar either CC or OC in parks.
Here's where the pesky "actual controversy" requirements come into play. You can't bring suit against a law on the grounds that law enforcement might misinterpret it on the street unless it is so poorly written that false arrests are highly likely to occur. If the average person has no way of knowing what conduct is prohibited, how can law enforcement be expected to know? Using far more words the judge has basically said he thinks that reasonable people will be able to figure it out. If they can't, the courts will gladly sort it out at that time.
BriKuz wrote:
Morne wrote:We are considering all options about an appeal.
what morne said... won't comment more until we see where we're going.
Thumbs up there - it's never wise for the actual parties in a legal proceeding to air their thoughts and plans out in the open. Glad you and the powers that be within OFCC don't feel the need to "consult the board" as we hash the topic out amongst ourselves :D
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Brian D. wrote:Jedi as long as we have a good turnout even a hippie dippy town like Oberlin will not send their police to bother much less arrest legally armed people in their park.
I'm not saying they will now as there is no law they are violating. But if the park is leased, do you not think they would stand their ground then? Do you think you'd get a large turnout when people know it's a felony because it's leased to a school?
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by Brian D. »

I wasn't talking about a gathering if the park had become "school" property.
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Suckerspawn wrote:MWSY,

Please shed some light on this. How does 927.07 violate 9.68?
Here is my interpretation. Remember, IANAL...

The key clause of 9.68(a) is:
Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.
Now, please imagine that "person" is a criminal or, more specifically, a 'prohibited person' who may not possess a firearm.

DOES the Oberlin ordinance apply to such a person?

If it does, it violates R.C. 9.68. After all, laws DO apply to criminals, don't they?
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by Werz »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
Werz wrote:An open carry event is an opportunity to demonstrate to the public - that's the public, not the government - what is actually legal. It is then the responsibility of the public - those both "for" and "against" - to approach their government and say, "Why do imply this is against the law when it is not, and when you cannot do anything to stop it?" The government already knows that open carry is lawful; it just doesn't want the public to believe that. The real purpose of an open carry event is to preach to the public and embarrass the government.
The problem though is it can backfire under current law and Oberlin has openly said in council meetings (prior to the lawsuit) that they would look into those areas. I'm referring to what Franklin Ohio City Parks is considering. Franklin isn't simply looking at leasing the parks to a private entity, which would result in nothing more than misdemeanor trespass, they are looking at leasing them to a school board, which makes it a felony school zone.

I think if Oberlin residents cared, they would have effected some change in the course of the lawsuit. Unfortunately, they have done nothing in that time and are happy with what Oberlin has done. I'm 50/50 but more 51/49 that right now an OC event would not be wise in Oberlin. I think the battle for that is at the statehouse and this case along with Franklin Parks are two keys on why it should be changed that government can't lease their areas out and make them no carry zones.
Until they do it, it's not done. I was at the first open carry event in Oberlin. I spoke with the city councilman. He was aware of provisions for leasing even then. One of their parks was already leased. Are they going to lease all their city parks to the school board? Does the school board want to assume maintenance and liability for all the city parks?

There are all sorts of stunts that municipalities can attempt in order to avoid R.C. 9.68. The City of Akron supports their gunbuster sign at Lock 3 Park with the fact that there is a Liquor Control D5J permit which covers the park, and as an open air arena, they can ban guns 24/7/365. They can reasonably interpret R.C. 2923.121 to ban openly armed non-licensees, but they cannot ban CHL holders from carrying firearms openly. That was clearly established yesterday. Sometimes, it needs to be publicly announced that the emperor has no clothes.
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-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
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Re: Oberlin update...

Post by BB62 »

Werz wrote:... I think a lot of folks believe that an open carry event is [1] a social event, [2] an opportunity to be a "rebel," and [3] a chance to show off one's coolest guns...
Now just hold on one cotton-picking minute!! :evil: Just why is it that you think I open carry/organize OC events?? :?: :?:

But seriously, those elements are definitely present in various OC events, and I don't consider it a problem at all. As far as I'm concerned, it's all about presentation.

Open carrying just to shove the right to do so in people's/the government's face is appropriate at times, and totally inappropriate at other times. Then there are "education" walks, which have a different tenor entirely.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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