Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.
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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.
READ THIS BEFORE POSTING
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Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
Would a "barn," such as that used to display animals at a county fair, be considered a "shelter" under the Ohio Revised Code? My reason for asking is that MANY Ag societies, including Lorain and Morrow, have come to the opinion that barns are shelters, and thus, not to be posted. On the other hand, Wayne County (and it seems Stark County) DO believe a barn can be posted. To further muddy the waters, 2923.126 refers to duties of a LICENSED individual. What effects would said posting have on a currently UNLICENSED open carrier?
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
The second part you enter into the muddy waters of can one legally open carry in a government building? The signage required to be posted is different than the ORC allows punishment for, so you fall back on what was the intent of the law? And you may win the battle, but you won't win the ride.
As for what a shelter is since I can't find it defined in the ORC you fall back to dictionary terms...
shel·ter
1. something beneath, behind, or within which a person, animal, or thing is protected from storms, missiles, adverse conditions, etc.; refuge.
2. the protection or refuge afforded by such a thing: He took shelter in a nearby barn.
3. protection from blame, incrimination, etc.
4. a dwelling place or home considered as a refuge from the elements: Everyone's basic needs are food, clothing, and shelter.
5. a building serving as a temporary refuge or residence for homeless persons, abandoned animals, etc.
I would say a barn falls into #1. Therefore it would be off limits.
As for what a shelter is since I can't find it defined in the ORC you fall back to dictionary terms...
shel·ter
1. something beneath, behind, or within which a person, animal, or thing is protected from storms, missiles, adverse conditions, etc.; refuge.
2. the protection or refuge afforded by such a thing: He took shelter in a nearby barn.
3. protection from blame, incrimination, etc.
4. a dwelling place or home considered as a refuge from the elements: Everyone's basic needs are food, clothing, and shelter.
5. a building serving as a temporary refuge or residence for homeless persons, abandoned animals, etc.
I would say a barn falls into #1. Therefore it would be off limits.
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
jedi, doesn't the ORC ALLOW carry by licensed individuals in a "shelter"... or are you saying that a barn at a fairground is NOT a "shelter," but something else entirely?
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
This is kinda hair splitting of verbiage, but I believe the ORC section allowing licensees to carry in "shelters" was meant to refer to picnic facilities, although it doesn't get that specific if I recall correctly. As you said, the fair boards are reaching different conclusions on that notion right now.BriKuz wrote:jedi, doesn't the ORC ALLOW carry by licensed individuals in a "shelter"... or are you saying that a barn at a fairground is NOT a "shelter," but something else entirely?
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
Even if definition 1 applies to a barn, the statute doesn't just say "used as a shelter" it says "primarily used as a shelter". Is a barn primarily used as a place to be protected from storms, missiles, adverse conditions, etc. - or is it primarily a place for storing straw, hay and/or livestock?
Unless the stuff in the barn is normally somewhere else but only moved to the barn during "adverse conditions" you're going to have a hard time getting a LEO, prosecutor or jury to buy the idea that a barn is a "shelter" under the purpose of 2923.126 (and therefore 2923.12).
Unless the stuff in the barn is normally somewhere else but only moved to the barn during "adverse conditions" you're going to have a hard time getting a LEO, prosecutor or jury to buy the idea that a barn is a "shelter" under the purpose of 2923.126 (and therefore 2923.12).
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
Point taken, DTOM... now, I, for the life of me, cannot find where open or concealed carry IS specifically made illegal. It is my understanding that if something is not EXPRESSLY prohibited by law, then it is legal. Please, correct me if I am wrong... I certainly don't know the ORC inside and out...
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
The problem is....BriKuz wrote:jedi, doesn't the ORC ALLOW carry by licensed individuals in a "shelter"... or are you saying that a barn at a fairground is NOT a "shelter," but something else entirely?
that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility
The way I read all that they are talking people and vehicle places. A barn in terms of a shelter IMO is for animals, not people. Remember, prosecutors can and do stretch definitions as they see fit. So you fall into a huge gray area.
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
Open carry is probably legal in many government buildings... But being right after the fact might not be that satisfying.
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
ORC 2911.21(3) (Criminal trespass) makes it a crime toBriKuz wrote:Point taken, DTOM... now, I, for the life of me, cannot find where open or concealed carry IS specifically made illegal. It is my understanding that if something is not EXPRESSLY prohibited by law, then it is legal. Please, correct me if I am wrong... I certainly don't know the ORC inside and out...
Since the mandated posted signs don't mention concealed carry but generally conveying a deadly weapon onto the premises, the posting applies to concealed and open carriers. Concealed carriers could be charged under 2923.12(A)(2) and open carriers under 2911.21(3) . The difference being felony vs misdemeanor. If there's a felony charge that could be brought against an open carrier for entering a posted government building I'm missing it.Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
So the building is not statutorily posted, but a subdivision may post any building where such posting would NOT be proscribed by law? (Please forgive me for the extra questions... IANAL, and I am trying to digest this information into a clear, concise, layman's terminology... as if there IS such a thing)
That would also mean that an un-posted building is okay to enter, but that if a representative of the ag society or fair board asked you to leave, you would be required to do so immediately or face criminal trespassing charges.
That would also mean that an un-posted building is okay to enter, but that if a representative of the ag society or fair board asked you to leave, you would be required to do so immediately or face criminal trespassing charges.
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
It's okay, it's a complex issue.BriKuz wrote:So the building is not statutorily posted, but a subdivision may post any building where such posting would NOT be proscribed by law? (Please forgive me for the extra questions... IANAL, and I am trying to digest this information into a clear, concise, layman's terminology... as if there IS such a thing)
Subdivisions can't legally post any building that isn't statutorily required to be posted.
IMO a barn probably qualifies as a non-shelter building so would be a statutory CPZ.
That's a very fine distinction and not one I'd be very excited about challenging. The question is: Does the requirement to post make the buildings illegal to enter in and of itself, or are they only illegal to enter if actually posted? A very technical reading would say the latter, but the law's intent of making those building off-limits to people carrying firearms (open or concealed) seems clear so I could easily see a judge ruling that it is "prescribed by law" and therefore illegal whether or not actually posted.BriKuz wrote:That would also mean that an un-posted building is okay to enter, but that if a representative of the ag society or fair board asked you to leave, you would be required to do so immediately or face criminal trespassing charges.
As always, advise you receive on "teh interwebz" is worth what you've paid for it so please don't just rely on it esp. for an issue as thorny as this one.
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
forgive me if I missed it, but what statute explicitly requires those buildings to be posted?
- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
2923.1212(A)(9)BriKuz wrote:forgive me if I missed it, but what statute explicitly requires those buildings to be posted?
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
2923.1212 Signage prohibiting concealed handguns.BriKuz wrote:forgive me if I missed it, but what statute explicitly requires those buildings to be posted?
Unfortunately the signage wording differs from the prohibited locations in 2923.126. However, it's debated if simple trespass would apply or not. I think it might.
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Re: Definition of a "shelter" under ORC...
I was afraid of that... thanks again for the cites... I miss AZ, and ID even more, at times... will we EVER be able to go armed into our own buildings???