City of Kettering Parks

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Okay, time for a follow-up...

Mr. Long-

To follow up on my emails from last week, do you have an estimate on when the signs at your parks will be corrected? I am told that there are still many signs posted indicating that firearms are not permitted.

Since you are aware of ORC 9.68, you probably know that the signs themselves are a violation of that law, even if your local ordinances are not in violation.

I would urge you to modify or take down any signage immediately that is not in compliance with state law until such time they can be corrected.

I am not a lawyer, but I did read the decision in OFCC v. City of Clyde and saw that Kettering joined in an amicus brief to reverse the Court of Appeals decision. That tells me that the city of Kettering has been aware of this violation since at least September 18, 2008, when the Ohio Supreme Court upheld the Court of Appeals ruling.

Again, please let me know when the signs will be corrected.

Thanks!

-"MWSY"
May 17, 2012

Oh, by the way. I originally sent this to several email contacts available from Kettering's web site. Mr. Long replied to all. I have followed suit and have replied to all on my emails to him.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Mr. "MWSY":

I received your email, and have inquired of the City as to the time frame for sign replacement/correction.

As soon as I have a response, I will let you know.

Sincerely,

Jim Long

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Apparently the park signs are down, but a city owned, outdoor entertainment venue called Fraze Pavillion is still posted.

No one from the city of Kettering told me about taking down the signs.

I found out from a post on OCDO:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... State-Law-(ORC-9-68" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

[fisher]

Apparently the park signs are down, but a city owned, outdoor entertainment venue called Fraze Pavillion is still posted.

No one from the city of Kettering told me about taking down the signs.

I found out from a post on OCDO:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... State-Law-(ORC-9-68" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The bathroom at Fraze pavavilion is still posted. It is a great venue. I was just there. The silly gunbuster sign at the restroom entrance has to go though.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

The bathroom at Fraze pavavilion is still posted. It is a great venue. I was just there. The silly gunbuster sign at the restroom entrance has to go though.

Can you describe for me the placement of the signs? I have never been to "the Fraze". Are the bathrooms IN the main building, or are they separate? The signs may be legal if the bathrooms are in, or are a part of, the main building, because the exception is for a building used 'primarily' as a bathroom.

[pirateguy191]

The bathroom at Fraze pavilion is still posted. It is a great venue.

I mean come on, how great can a bathroom be?

[fisher]

The bathroom at Fraze pavavilion is still posted. It is a great venue. I was just there. The silly gunbuster sign at the restroom entrance has to go though.

Can you describe for me the placement of the signs? I have never been to "the Fraze". Are the bathrooms IN the main building, or are they separate? The signs may be legal if the bathrooms are in, or are a part of, the main building, because the exception is for a building used 'primarily' as a bathroom.

Their is a concession building which has a lower level which can only be accessed by walking down and behind the building. The bathrooms are inside, so it does appear as though the sign might be legitimate, but I still think it is silly and should come down.

[fisher]

As a side note, bags are searched upon entry, and their website says no weapons are permitted (including knives).

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Sent 6/18

Mr. Long-

An acquaintance told me that "No firearms" signage in Kettering parks has been corrected.

Can you confirm this for me?


At the same time, I was told that Fraze Pavillion was posted with "No firearms" signs.

I have never been to Fraze Pavillion, but their website, which has some great pictures of that venue, also says "FIREARMS ARE STRICTLY FORBIDDEN!" Their emphasis, not mine.

What puzzles me is why that venue is posted.

It is owned by the city and it is not a building (it's even advertised as an outdoor venue).

It was mentioned that it might be because it is proximate to government buildings, but that is not relevant. There are no laws restricting firearms from being near buildings, only in them.

In addition to confirming that park signs have been corrected, can you let me know why Fraze Pavillion is still posted?

Thanks!

-"MWSY"

Received 6/25

Dear "MWSY":

Thank you for your email.

With regard to your inquiries, I have the following information:


City Park Signs


The City has taken all the administrative steps necessary for all the City park signs to be corrected. The Parks Department is determining the most cost effective way to change the signs. As you can imagine, there are a large number of signs to remove, re-letter and then re-hang. The task is being handled as quickly and efficiently as our Parks Department resources will allow.

As I discussed with you in an earlier email, the rules regarding firearm carry in parks are known to the City, and there has never been any enforcement action taken by the City in violation of the Ohio Revised Code. This was always simply a matter of updating the park signs to reflect current Ohio law.


Fraze Pavilion


I believe you may have been misinformed by someone in relation to the Fraze Pavilion.

I took time to visit the Fraze Pavilion in person, to see for myself if there was any inappropriate signage or other issues at that location. There were none.

The only “no carry” signs posted were those posted on the window of the building which houses the Fraze ticket office, and those posted for the Fraze Pavilion building itself.

There is no restricted posting for the open air portions of the surrounding park or the Civic Commons.

There may be some confusion due to the fact that people refer to the entire area in which the Fraze Pavilion is located as “The Fraze”. However, this area is actually comprised of multiple components: a park, a Civic Commons, a concession stand, the ticket office, restrooms, a patio seating area, several large water features, a walking trail and the Fraze Pavilion building.

The open air portions of the area known as “The Fraze” are similar to a local park. As you know, this means that open carry is legal (for anyone who may legally possess a firearm).

This also means that concealed carry is legal, for anyone with a valid Ohio CHL, or qualifying out of State CHL.

In contrast to this general area called “The Fraze”, the actual Fraze Pavilion is simply the building which houses the concert venue. As is true of government owned venues which host entertainment events in Cincinnati and Cleveland, the interior space of the Fraze Pavilion building itself is not available for open or concealed carry.

Similar to entering a Cincinnati Reds game or a Cincinnati Bengals game, anyone may access the common areas adjacent to the venue. However, one may not pass through a checkpoint for entry into the venue with any item not permitted inside the venue. Prohibited items could include anything from alcohol or a video camera, to firearms, knives, fireworks, signs, banners, etc., depending on the particular rules of the venue.

Again, thank you for your email. I appreciate your reasonable approach to this discussion, and wish all the inquiries I receive were as clear and concise as yours.

Sincerely,

Jim Long
City Prosecutor
Kettering, Ohio

Sent 6/25

Dear Mr. Long-

Thanks for your attention in this matter. Really. Thank you.

We've come a long way from me just wanting to visit Delco Park!


I understand that budgets and manpower concerns come into play, but this is a 5 year old law.

If a law-abiding citizen looks at posted park rules and reads that firearms are not allowed, those law-abiding citizens are 'tricked' into following illegal laws and will leave or disarm themselves. That's why, morally, they cannot be left on the books, even if not enforced.

I do hope the Parks Department was asked to make this a priority.


As for Fraze Pavillion, as I said, I have never been there. After seeing some of the acts booked for that venue, I may have to visit!

There are 2 issues at the Fraze that I have been informed about. The first is that the Fraze website has the statement (which I mentioned in a previous email):

"FIREARMS ARE STRICTLY FORBIDDEN!"

According to what you mention in your email, that statement seems way too vague. Firearms are strictly forbidden WHERE? It needs corrected or removed.

The second issue, and I have merely been told this, is that there are 'no guns' signs on the bathrooms at Fraze. I have asked the person that mentioned this to get some photographs so I could see what he's talking about.

I do not know where the bathrooms are located and can't really form an opinion without more info.


Again, I appreciate your help with these issues, and I'll leave you with one last comment.

You stated that government buildings are off-limits to open and concealed carriers.

This is not correct.

Do not panic, but there are no state laws prohibiting the OPEN carry of firearms into most state and local government buildings.


Have a great day!

-"MWSY"

[fisher3]

What Mr. Long refers to as the Fraze building is not correct IMO. The place were acts are hosted is a clearly an open air venue. There is essentially a fence around this but they have a large grassy area inside the building and sell lawn seats. It has been a long time since I have been there but it is clearly not like the Reds or other private facilities and it is not a government building assuming that a building needs a roof and floor .

[DontTreadOnMe]

In contrast to this general area called “The Fraze”, the actual Fraze Pavilion is simply the building which houses the concert venue. As is true of government owned venues which host entertainment events in Cincinnati and Cleveland, the interior space of the Fraze Pavilion building itself is not available for open or concealed carry.

There is no building at the Fraze Pavillion area that houses the concert "venue". There's a building that houses the concert stage and backstage area.



That's a picture from their own website. Does that look like the people attending the concert are in a building?

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Their is a concession building which has a lower level which can only be accessed by walking down and behind the building. The bathrooms are inside, so it does appear as though the sign might be legitimate, but I still think it is silly and should come down.

Is the concession building separate from other buildings? Are the people that work the concession stands city employees?

[MyWifeSaidYes]

As a side note, bags are searched upon entry, and their website says no weapons are permitted (including knives).

There are two places on the website that mention weapons. That's one.

To see the other, go to the link on the Fraze website that says "About the venue". You'll see the following: "FIREARMS ARE STRICTLY PROHIBITED!"

Their emphasis, not mine.

[JediSkipdogg]

CC4me - Good to know specifics. Is there any chance you or another forum member could post photos of the actual signs? Pictures from multiple parks would be good.

BobK - Is there a description on OFCC about the case you mentioned? If not, is there a case number or anything I can use to look up the case? PM me if necessary.



The law director say the city is "in the process of updating the language of local park signs..." I'll be asking him when the signs will be updated. He knows the signs are illegal, but they haven't been changed or taken down.

Sounds like they're open to yet another lawsuit.

Now now, sign changing takes a long time. It's government after all. First they have to put out bids to all sign companies to make new signs. Then they have to review all those bids. Then they have to have two council hearings to approve the bid. Then they have to have special sessions to determine the look of the new signs. Then more votes and talks. Give it about 10 months and they will be changed.

Sad thing is, that's kinda actually serious in this day and age.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...The law director say the city is "in the process of updating the language of local park signs..." I'll be asking him when the signs will be updated. He knows the signs are illegal, but they haven't been changed or taken down.

Sounds like they're open to yet another lawsuit.

Now now, sign changing takes a long time. It's government after all. First they have to put out bids to all sign companies to make new signs. Then they have to review all those bids. Then they have to have two council hearings to approve the bid. Then they have to have special sessions to determine the look of the new signs. Then more votes and talks. Give it about 10 months and they will be changed.

Sad thing is, that's kinda actually serious in this day and age.

Unless they go with the FIX, THEN REPLACE method.

It only takes one (1) meeting to declare an emergency and pass a resolution to "cover any portion of a municipal sign or park sign containing a rule or regulation that may be in violation of the laws of the State of Ohio". Then they can get the duct tape out. Turtlecreek Township actually got out a roll of white refective material to cover the offending portion of their signs.

Then they start on the replacement process. And they can take as long as they want as long as people can't see the 'bad' rules.