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Sandusky County Park District

A sub-forum for the purpose of discussing ORC 9.68 compliance. This sub-forum is strictly for the discussion of progress in individual cities and their respective parks.

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Sandusky County Park District

Postby IC1 SS SSN653 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:46 pm

Would someone please review the Sandusky County Park District system.

Quotes from their website

"Sandusky County Park District that has several parks; eleven facilities cover 2247 acres and include Blue Heron Reserve, Countryside Park, Creek Bend Farm, Green Creek Twp Property, Muddy Creek Reserve, Mull Covered Bridge, North Coast Inland Trail, Ringneck Ridge Wildlife Area, Shelley Wetland, White Star Park, and Wolf Creek Park."

"The Park District is governed by a three member, volunteer Board of Park Commissioners who have been appointed by the Probate Judge."

"Park District income is derived from a 1 mill property tax levy that was passed in 2007. This 10 year levy brings in approximately $1,000,000 annually. Additional income comes from user fees, grants, and donations."

Note point 2.0 of their Rules and Regulations on their website.

http://www.lovemyparks.com/operations/ranger_dept

RULES AND REGULATIONS OF THE SANDUSKY COUNTY PARK DISTRICT
Updated 08-12-10

1.0 Littering, dumping of garbage, sewage and noxious material is prohibited
1.4 Possession of aerosol paint containers is prohibited
2.0 Possession of firearms, weapons, and explosives of any type are permitted only within specially designated areas for specially designated purposes within the parks

(snip)...
9.0 Hunting*, trapping, and the molesting of wildlife is prohibited within the parks. Hunting is permitted only in specially designated areas for those sportsmen obtaining proper permission and adhering to established rules and regulations.
Collecting of fruits, nuts, mushrooms and berries is permitted in unrestricted areas.


I have visited several of the parks and they have similar rules posted on the individual park bulletin boards.
Last edited by IC1 SS SSN653 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby charben » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:00 pm

Not sure what your point is about the highlighted areas that are not related to firearms. For the relevant firearm rules, they are clearly in violation. Feel free to give them a call or send them an email. If you want, look through this forum to find examples of emails I've sent in the past to other districts. If you want my help, send me a PM.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby Javelin Man » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:32 pm

Hmm, I carry all the time in the parks, especially since I live right beside a couple of them. If I see a ranger, I'll talk to them, but your email and contact will get a lot accomplished.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby IC1 SS SSN653 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:54 pm

Apparently this discussion had been started back in 2009.
Seems like the "appropriate changes" to rules were not accomplished and re-posted on the website and the park bulletin boards.

I plan to call tomorrow and ask for an update on the progress of the rule changes.


viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27171&p=353234&hilit=Sandusky+County+Park#p353234

Re: Gibsonburg (NW Ohio) Appleseed Shoots Announced

Postby arpjoe » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:23 am
White Star Campgroung: Firearms Rules Changed since last year. Kenneth Frost, Chief Ranger for Sandusky Co Parks Division contacted Feb 25-26, 2009 via emails.

CHL holders explicitly allowed but I had to reply back asking about non-CHL possession on park property. Rules might need a little revision yet. My concern was non-CHL persons with firearms in cars, on campsites firearms restrictions.

Section 2.0 Firearms,Weapons,Explosives,Missiles, Ect.

2.1 Carrying of Firearms, Weapons, Explosives, Missiles, Etc
Other than in authorized permitted hunting areas, no person, except Rangers or other law enforcement officers, shall carry firearms of any description, air or gas gun, sling shot, explosives, fireworks, or missile throwing device, or other dangerous weapon within of adjacent to the park without specific written permit from the director.

2.1.1. Carrying Concealed Weapons Exemptions
Citizens who have a valid CCW permit are permitted to carry a concealed weapon on Park District property, unless otherwise prohibited to do so in posted areas, as long as they abide by all the rules established for the possession of a CCW permit. Anyone who fails to abide by such rules shall be subject to criminal charges.

2nd Email Message

As you stated it is not illegal for open carry in the State of Ohio. I have worked in law enforcement for the last 10 years and I can tell you from personal experience that a law enforcement officer cannot arrest for open carry in Ohio. To answer the question, as long as the person is in compliance with State and Federal regulations, no arrest will be conducted by our department. Our Rangers are Police Officers and still have to follow the letter of the law prescribed by the Ohio Revised Code. I hope this clears things up a little, I know that things are a little undefined at points. But on a personal note, just so you know where I stand, I have and always will support the concealed carry law in Ohio. I will look into this further and if our rules do not comply with State Laws I will make the appropriate changes. (Emphasis added)

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Please don’t hesitate to contact me directly if I can be of further assistance.

Kenneth Frost

Safety Service Coordinator / Chief Ranger

Sandusky County Park District
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby charben » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:08 pm

IC1 SS SSN653 wrote:Apparently this discussion had been started back in 2009.
Seems like the "appropriate changes" to rules were not accomplished and re-posted on the website and the park bulletin boards.

I plan to call tomorrow and ask for an update on the progress of the rule changes.


viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27171&p=353234&hilit=Sandusky+County+Park#p353234

Re: Gibsonburg (NW Ohio) Appleseed Shoots Announced



Well, I was never involved in this discussion. Let me know if you need any help. Since you are new to the forums, let me just ask you to please be respectful in your conversation. Do not represent yourself as having any official capacity with OFCC.

Thanks!
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby IC1 SS SSN653 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:44 pm

Well I had a very pleasant chat with the Ranger on Duty who is the Assistant Director about the posted Rules and Regulations
for the Sandusky County Park District.

He read to me from his copy of the of the Rules and Regulations which had sub-points to the posted rules which clearly
described that CHL holders were allowed to carry in the parks. He also said that the Rangers were well aware of the
State of Ohio CHL laws.

I expressed my main concern was that a person reading the Out-of-Date rules on a bulletin board or on the website,
would call a LEO and/or have a confrontation when observing someone carrying lawfully.

He said he would forward my observation on the Out-of-Date (Updated 08-12-10) posted Rules and Regulations to the Director.

I expect to see the current Rules and Regulations to be posted on the Sandusky County Park District website
(http://www.lovemyparks.com/operations/ranger_dept), their park bulletin boards and their campground bulletin
boards soon.

Looks like a quick and easy fix..
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby ohiophotog » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:55 am

The ranger needs to be aware that it is not only CHL holders that are allowed to possess and carry a loaded handgun into the parks, it's ANYONE, you only need a CHL to conceal said handgun. Those without a CHL may Open Carry all they want legally within the park.

ETA IIRC, and I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong, this applys to all firearms, not just handguns, in case they tried to carve out exceptions only for handguns.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby charben » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:02 am

IC1 SS SSN653 wrote:Well I had a very pleasant chat with the Ranger on Duty who is the Assistant Director about the posted Rules and Regulations
for the Sandusky County Park District.

He read to me from his copy of the of the Rules and Regulations which had sub-points to the posted rules which clearly
described that CHL holders were allowed to carry in the parks. He also said that the Rangers were well aware of the
State of Ohio CHL laws.

I expressed my main concern was that a person reading the Out-of-Date rules on a bulletin board or on the website,
would call a LEO and/or have a confrontation when observing someone carrying lawfully.

He said he would forward my observation on the Out-of-Date (Updated 08-12-10) posted Rules and Regulations to the Director.

I expect to see the current Rules and Regulations to be posted on the Sandusky County Park District website
(http://www.lovemyparks.com/operations/ranger_dept), their park bulletin boards and their campground bulletin
boards soon.

Looks like a quick and easy fix..


Not really. See ohiophotog's post above. Also, refer to my thread about the Hancock Park District.

This is a fairly common issue with parks. They modify the rules to provide an exception for CHL holder not realizing (or maybe they DO realize) that the wording is STILL in violation of 9.68 because of the implied prohibition of open carry.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Wed May 09, 2012 1:07 am

Nothing's happened?

The rules posted at: http://www.lovemyparks.com/operations/ranger_dept say "Updated 4-17-12" right at the top.

Rule 2.0 says
Possession of firearms, weapons, and explosives of any type are permitted only within specially designated areas for specially designated purposes within the parks and in compliance with all State of Ohio and Federal laws pertaining to the use of firearms.


Charben may want to contact them as he already had made contact.

I've just sent this email:

To whom it may concern-

Can you please advise me on the rules regarding firearms at Countryside Park and other parks in the district?

I prefer to openly carry my handgun in a hip holster. I was advised by an acquaintance that firearms are not allowed at the parks, whether openly carried or concealed.

Since this goes against state preemption (ORC 9.68), I was hoping you could confirm for me what the rules actually are.

Thanks!

-MWSY"
May 9, 2012
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby IC1 SS SSN653 » Wed May 09, 2012 11:13 am

I have had a pleasant discussions with the Ranger I previously contacted. After the discussion he went to the "http://www.lovemyparks.com/operations/ranger_dept" website page, and put a link to the "Full List of RULES AND REGULATIONS".

Once I had a chance to read the full list, I called and discussed them with him. He said he was aware of the problems with the "Full List of RULES AND REGULATIONS", but it takes the Board of Park Commissioners to make rule changes. Changing the rules would take about a month. He informed me that the Director of the Sandusky County Park District has been on vacation.

Areas of the rules we discussed were:
2.1 Carrying of Firearms, Weapons, Explosives, Missiles, Etc. (2923.12)
"Other than in authorized permitted hunting areas, no person, except rangers or other law enforcement officers, shall carry firearms of any description, air or gas gun, sling shot, explosives, fireworks, or missile throwing device, or other dangerous weapon within or adjacent to the park without specific written permit from the Director."

We discussed Open Carry of firearms and came to an understanding that this rule needs to be rewritten.
We discussed the phrase "adjacent to the park", it apparently comes from a history of people causing problems within the park from outside the park property, i.e. shooting objects into the park from outside "adjacent" the park. This phase shouldn't involve the firearms carrying subject.

Then we had a humorous discussion about a rule of discharging of firearms, involving a description of a "ray" gun. Bringing back memories of cartoon characters and Martians with ray guns. I believe that this could be better described as using laser light devices in a harmful manner, shining them into people's eyes, etc.

Overall I think I have a very good relationship with the Ranger I contacted and I'm sure we will get everything ironed out, once the bureaucratic wheels start moving.

I would also like to be able to PM CHarben or other experts once the rules have been revised for their input. I'm still on PM probation because I haven't posted very many times.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Fri May 11, 2012 7:23 am

I misread charben's earlier posts. Didn't realize he had NOT contacted them.

IC1, just post in this thread with any status updates.

The rangers may never enforce what is written in their rules, but the 9.68 violation occurs because it is written.

I'll wait until next week to get a reply from them. I sent my email to scpd@sanduskycountyparks.com

This may not be an address that is regularly checked. A vacation would also explain a delay.

If I don't get a response, I'll resend the email to most every email contact I can find for the county.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby IC1 SS SSN653 » Fri May 11, 2012 11:10 am

Well the bureaucratic wheels have been moving and a revised set of "Full List of RULES AND REGULATIONS" revised 5-10-2012 have
been posted on their website link, "http://www.lovemyparks.com/operations/ranger_dept".

It is still a work in progress.

More specific details will follow when available.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Fri May 11, 2012 7:25 pm

Dear "MWSY",

I am the Assistant Director and Chief Ranger of the Sandusky County Park District and I am writing in regards to the concerned email you sent about the Park District not allowing CCW or Open Carry at Countryside Park and other parks within the Park District.

The Sandusky County Park District follows the laws of the State of Ohio and the Federal Government. We have had a rule exemption specific to CCW for a long time now, which specifically states that those with CCW permits are permitted to carry firearms in the parks (as long as they follow laws concerning said permit), unless specifically prohibited to do so in posted areas, i.e. on buildings.

The Ranger Department, which I am in charge of, is also well aware of Open Carry and the ability for citizens to do so in Ohio. I would like to point you to our rules, which in brief summary form are available on kiosks throughout the parks, or are available in full on our website. Here is a link to those rules http://www.lovemyparks.com/operations/ranger_dept .
Please keep in mind that the summary that is posted on kiosks must be brief in form because of space issues.

As a Ranger Department, our main concern is for the safety of all park users.

I ask that you please clear the air with the acquaintance you spoke of and inform him or her that the Sandusky County Park District does not prohibit Open Carry or Concealed Carry in any way. We are not in the business of going against the laws of the State of Ohio and pride ourselves on being informed. We are all well aware of informative sites such as OpenCarry.org and OhioOpenCarry.org and have had extensive discussions on how to handle these matters and informing the general public of these laws and what they mean. By the way, one of our Rangers is also a CCW instructor.

I hope that I have answered your question and eased your concern regarding this matter. If you have any more questions or need more clarification please feel free to contact me.

Regards,

Andrew Brown
Assistant Director
Sandusky County Park District
1970 Countryside Place
Fremont, Ohio 43420


and

Dear Mr. Brown-

Thank you for your quick response!

I believe you have pointed me to the cause of the confusion.

Your 'full' set of rules looks fine and easy to understand regarding firearms.

I think your 'brief summary' set of rules on your web site has a problem.

Item 2.0 states "Possession of firearms, weapons, and explosives of any type are permitted only within specially designated areas for specially designated purposes within the parks and in compliance with all State of Ohio and Federal laws pertaining to the use of firearms."

I am not a lawyer. I am reading this as a layman and Item 2.0 appears to restrict firearms to only specific places and for only specific purposes.

Since the public gets to see ONLY the 'brief summary' at the parks, this does not seem to be compliant with state law.

Do you have an attorney that could give an opinion on whether 'brief summary' Item 2.0 is compliant with state law (specifically ORC 9.68)?


I will also look into those open carry web sites you mentioned. Thank you for that information!

If I can be of help in any way, please don't hesitate to call me.

Thanks, again.

-"MWSY"
May 11, 2012
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Tue May 15, 2012 12:32 pm

Got this today:

Mr. "MWSY",

I will pass along your concerns to our legal staff. Thank you for your time and for expressing your concerns.

Regards,

Andrew Brown
Assistant Director
Sandusky County Park District
1970 Countryside Place
Fremont, Ohio 43420


I'll give them a week and follow up.
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Re: Sandusky County Park District

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:32 pm

My follow up:

Dear Mr. Brown-

Have you heard back from your legal staff?

I noticed on your web site that your 'brief summary' rules still appear to
restrict firearm possession in the parks in violation of Ohio Revised Code
9.68.

If the 'brief summary' version of these rules is still posted at the parks,
those signs are also in violation.

I have worked with Montgomery County and the City of Kettering, among
others, to correct their non-compliant rules and laws, and would encourage
your legal staff to advise you soon regarding ORC 9.68.

I am not a lawyer, but imagine that this should be, at minimum, an
administrative decision, and at most, should require the county trustees to
pass a resolution.

If the trustees have this issue on their agenda already, could someone
please advise me of that?

Feel free to ask them to reply to me directly if you feel you are not the
right person for me to contact regarding this issue.

Thanks.

-"MWSY"
June 19, 2012


And his reply from today:

Mr. "MWSY"

We have recently made changes to our summary of rules. They are available
on our website if you would like to review them.

Thanks,


Andrew Brown
Assistant Director
Sandusky County Park District
1970 Countryside Place
Fremont, Ohio 43420
419-552-0047


The updated ruleshave removed restrictions on carrying firearms. Yay!
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