No carry signs in local park

A sub-forum for the purpose of discussing ORC 9.68 compliance. This sub-forum is strictly for the discussion of progress in individual cities and their respective parks.

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Ryanb3431
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No carry signs in local park

Post by Ryanb3431 »

I live in Warren county and frequently visit Patricia Allen park in Clear Creek Township (Right near the intersection of state route 48 and 73). I usually take my dog walking on the trails and have always taken a firearm with me. I recently noticed they have the infamous no carry signs posted on the information boards at the park (the signs have probably been there the whole time I have just never seen them since there not in a conspicuous location). I am almost 100% sure the park is owned and operated by the township. This being the case, it is my understanding they cannot legally prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms... is this correct ? If my understanding is correct, what is the best way to go about getting the signs removed ?
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by ohiophotog »

Well first things first. I see this is you first post so welcome to these great forums!

Secondly you are correct if the park is indeed owned and operated by the township or city or county or any other government entity they can not regulate possession of a handgun by anyone, weather they are a CHL holder or not, and they can not regulate open carry or concealed carry (assuming those carrying concealed have a CHL). They really can't regulate anything (ammo, transport, sales, etc.) that has to do with firearms anywhere, except zoning and even then they have some tight rules that they have to follow.

Third thing is that this thread belongs in the ORC 9.68 sub-forum. I'm sure one of the mods will move it.

ETA almost for got to address how to get it removed. Best thing to do it open a line of communication with the parks department director if there is such a person or maybe the head attorney for the government entity that controls the park. Ask them politely about the park rules and regulations regarding firearms within the parks. If they tell you it is against the rules to possess a firearm in the parks politely make them aware of ORC General Provision 9.68 that establishes a state wide pre emption of local rules and regulations including within the parks of local municipalities. Also make sure they are aware of the Ohio Supreme Court decisions up holding said preemption against Cleveland Heights and many others. You may also mention that if a person or organization were to bring a law suit against them for the violations of ORC 9.68 that the law provides the plaintiff reimbursement by the defendant ( the municipality) for any and all reasonable attorneys fees.

It is highly recommended that you contact our ORC 9.68 Compliance Coordinator known on these boards as charben for more detailed instruction and coaching. Or he may decide to take it upon himself to contact them. That is his choice.

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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by Ryanb3431 »

Thank you for the info... that is exactly what I was looking to know !
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by NavyChief »

ohiophotog wrote: Third thing is that this thread belongs in the ORC 9.68 sub-forum. I'm sure one of the mods will move it
Yep
Total repeal of ALL firearms/weapons laws at the local, state and federal levels. Period. Wipe the slate clean.
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by NavyChief »

OK, it is definitely owned/operated by the township:

http://www.clearcreektownship.com/Parks/Parks.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here are the park rules (I've not reviewed them yet myself):

http://www.clearcreektownship.com/Parks ... 8-2005.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edit to add:

And here we go. The rules were adopted 4/28/2005.
7.0 WEAPONS, FIREARMS, FIREWORKS, EXPLOSIVES PROHIBITED.

7.1 Weapons, firearms, fireworks, explosives. No person, except Law Enforcement Officers, as defined in 2901.01 (K)(1) of the Ohio Revised Code, and authorized employees or agents of the Board, shall possess a firearm, deadly weapon, dangerous ordnance, fireworks, explosive, blowgun, air rifle, sling shot, paint ball device or missile throwing device within the Park, or discharge any firearm, deadly weapon, dangerous ordnance, blowgun, paint ball device or missile throwing device, fireworks, explosive, sling shot, or air rifle therein, without specific written permit from the Township Administrator.
Yes, they are in violation of 9.68.
Total repeal of ALL firearms/weapons laws at the local, state and federal levels. Period. Wipe the slate clean.
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

If it's a township, they are also subject to ORC 504.04. Section (B)(6) states a township can't make regulations about hunting, trapping, fishing OR firearms possession, use or sale.
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by tbrew85 »

Ryanb3431 wrote:... If my understanding is correct, what is the best way to go about getting the signs removed ?
I would suggest writing an email to each member of the Clearcreek Township Board of Trustees.

In this thread, http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=60120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , Charben included an email he sent to Hancock Parks district that politely points out their error. I used the basic structure of his email and sent one to Butler County Metroparks for a similar situation and got what I consider to be positive results.

Its likely that they are aware of their mistake but just "haven't gotten around to updating" their rules and regs.

I don't know Charben but I'm sure if you ask him he would be glad to get involved, However, Im thinking with as much as I would assume he has going on, that if you feel comfortable addressing the situation first, that might be a good idea. If you get no where, then call in the big dog.
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

I didn't see if anyone had contacted them yet, or not.

I just sent an inquiry to the Park Operations Manager, Tony Hale:
Dear Mr. Hale-

Can you please advise me on the rules regarding firearms at Patricia Allyn Park?

I prefer to openly carry my handgun in a hip holster. I was advised by an acquaintance that firearms are not allowed at that park, whether openly carried or concealed.

Since this goes against state preemption (ORC 9.68), I was hoping you could confirm for me what the rules actually are.

Thanks!

-"MWSY"
May 9, 2012
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Mr. "MWSY",

Thank you for your inquiry about open carry of a firearm at Patricia Allyn Park. At one time, a sign was posted at the entrance that said no firearms were allowed in the park except for Police. Because of changes in the laws, that sign was removed. We are currently reviewing our written rules and regulations for Patricia Allyn Park to assure that we are in compliance. We are in the process of appointing a new Law Director for the Township. That person will evaluate our current policy and make the determination if changes are necessary. Until that time, there may be a discrepancy between the posted written rules and what O.R.C. says. New rules will be posted as soon as any changes are made.

If you need further clarification, you can contact our Township Administrator, Mr. Dennis Pickett, at 937-xxx-xxxx.

Sincerely,

Tony Hale
Park Operations Manager
Clearcreek Township
and
Mr. Hale-

Thanks for your quick response!

My concern is with law enforcement officers I may encounter. I have found that even officers that are well versed in state law can be swayed by incorrect and out-of-date rules on a sign or website that a citizen points out to them.

I have not yet visited the park or website (I chose to send my original email first), so I do not know if your posted rules are in compliance or not.

While I understand that you're in between Law Directors right now, I would urge the township to quickly take action if your documented rules or regulations restrict the open or concealed carry of firearms. I would recommend this be an agenda item for the next township meeting.

Ohio Revised Code 9.68, which prohibits firearms restrictions below the state level, has been a general law of the state for over 5 years now. I am not a lawyer, but I'm certain they would tell you that ORC 9.68 allows courts to award costs and attorney fees in suits brought against violations of that code, and there are documented court cases where this has happened.

If I can be of any help at all, please do not hesitate to contact me.


Thanks, again!

-"MWSY"
May 11, 2012
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voleye
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by voleye »

So the same thing applies to Weatherwax Golf course? It is owned by the City of Middletown and has the no guns sign as you pull in the driveway. I would be happy to email the law director and city council if this is correct.
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by JediSkipdogg »

voleye wrote:So the same thing applies to Weatherwax Golf course? It is owned by the City of Middletown and has the no guns sign as you pull in the driveway. I would be happy to email the law director and city council if this is correct.
If it is owned by the City you are correct. The only place that should be posted is the doors to the buildings as those would be off limits. I carry in my bag when I golf and have a simple lock for that pocket when I go inside to briefly pay or use the restroom.
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

voleye wrote:So the same thing applies to Weatherwax Golf course? It is owned by the City of Middletown and has the no guns sign as you pull in the driveway. I would be happy to email the law director and city council if this is correct.
What Jedi said.

There are several different versions of letters here you can use as a guide, or make up your own.

I like to pose a question and then point out the 'issue' when they reply. This gives them a chance to save face (play dumb) by saying they weren't aware of the 'issue'.

When they say "Thanks, we'll get right on that!", ask them "When?" If they have to forward that 'issue' to someone, don't let more than a week go by without following up.

And have fun!
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Re: No carry signs in local park

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Looks like the Middletown laws are compliant:

Their web site has a link to their codes. Parks is section 1070.
(g) Firearms and weapons.

(1) No person shall possess or discharge any fireworks, explosives or model rockets in any park.

(2) No person shall possess within any park area any deadly weapon, except as otherwise specifically permitted by law. The supervised use of bow and arrows is permissible in parks only through recreation programs sponsored by the City of Middletown.
I don't really like the wording of the highlighted line above. Open carry is not actually 'permitted' anywhere in State law, but ORC 9.68 prevents restrictions against it, so...
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