Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

A sub-forum for the purpose of discussing ORC 9.68 compliance. This sub-forum is strictly for the discussion of progress in individual cities and their respective parks.

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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dirtdawg
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Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by dirtdawg »

We all know that a park district cannot ban firearms in parks for patrons. Can they keep contractors working on park properties from carrying firearms?
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BobK
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by BobK »

I would say yes.

Local governments can forbid employees from carrying as a condition of employment. I see no reason they would be unable to make no carrying a contractual obligation with a contractor. That isn't "passing a law", that is entering into a commercial contract.
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by charben »

I concur with BobKs assessment.
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by bigdan390 »

I have to agree with BobK and charben. Yes.
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by SMMAssociates »

dirtdawg:

I concur with the gang....

However, it appears that this would NOT be an enumerated CPZ (i.e., Felony) issue, as long as you're not in proscribed areas (i.e., Police Station, Courthouse, etc.).

So, if you're working in a park, for example, or about any other location where the 9.68 rule favors us, they can tell you not to carry, and even forbid you from having the gun in your vehicle, but getting fired would likely be the worst thing that could happen for just having it with you. Same as working for "Fred's mufflers and burgers"....

(IMHO/IANAL)

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dirtdawg
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by dirtdawg »

I eventually came to the same conclusion. After all, a contractor must voluntarily agree to a contract. There is always the option of not bidding. I just happened to have the opportunity to read some specifications for a project and this prohibition was in the section about legal requirements. Certainly, this could be a general condition regarding conduct.

I further conclude that violation would be grounds for termination of the contract, but not grounds for a criminal trespass charge.

ETA good morning Stu. Looks like we were responding at the same time.
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by SMMAssociates »

dirtdawg:

I'm a night people.... Self-employed, but it got to be better to try to work (at home) while everybody else is asleep. Ever try to get anything done with a dog on your lap? Not to mention a couple of cats who like to get into everything....

IAC, that's the answer - if you're not going to be entering enumerated areas (buildings we paid for), it's either Civil or just a misdemeanor, and part of the contract, not law.

What gets cute is the tow driver who brings evidence vehicles into the PD garage, for example (or removes them). Cranking off the tow drivers (and cabbies) should be very low on the PD's list, but the evidence garage violators are on thin ice unless their contract (if there is one) includes language that permits it. The 9.68 rules probably don't protect you from just driving into a fenced off area, although I'd argue that a locked (or guarded) gate would be a requirement.

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djthomas
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by djthomas »

BobK wrote:That isn't "passing a law", that is entering into a commercial contract.
How far would/could this extend? I mean, a contract's a contract that you voluntarily agree to. What about one where as a condition of joining the city recreation center you agree to never bring any firearms on to any property managed by the parks and rec board?
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by BobK »

djthomas wrote:
BobK wrote:That isn't "passing a law", that is entering into a commercial contract.
How far would/could this extend? I mean, a contract's a contract that you voluntarily agree to. What about one where as a condition of joining the city recreation center you agree to never bring any firearms on to any property managed by the parks and rec board?
Interesting question.

If it is simply an admission charge to the general public, I'd sure want to argue about whether they could legally impose those conditions. For example, if you were to rent a picnic shelter at the park, or an ODNR campsite, I don't see how they could impose those conditions for accessing public services.

There is a difference between accessing public services and entering into a commercial contract where the contractor receives money.

All of this is opinion, obviously.
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OhioPaints
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by OhioPaints »

While I agree that a commercial contract can include that language, I expect that violation would only violate the contract, not the law. IOW, carrying into such a situation would violate the contract agreement but would not expose the person to any criminal issues. IANAL.

But how far does this go? Could a contract also require renouncing other rights? Could a contract require a person giving up protection from discrimination? Or from sexual harassment? Doubtful. So why could it require giving up the right of self defense?

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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by evan price »

OhioPaints wrote:While I agree that a commercial contract can include that language, I expect that violation would only violate the contract, not the law. IOW, carrying into such a situation would violate the contract agreement but would not expose the person to any criminal issues. IANAL.

But how far does this go? Could a contract also require renouncing other rights? Could a contract require a person giving up protection from discrimination? Or from sexual harassment? Doubtful. So why could it require giving up the right of self defense?

Ken
As long as the terms of the contract are not so obviously and egregiously heinous for one of the parties ("you agree that if you are ever late with your apartment rent you will pay me a $1,000,000 surcharge") or are illegal in and of themselves (Such as "You agree to provide 500 grams of cocaine monthly"), or violate the federally protected classes, anything two parties agree to in a contract is legally binding.
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by OhioPaints »

evan price wrote: As long as the terms of the contract are not so obviously and egregiously heinous for one of the parties ("you agree that if you are ever late with your apartment rent you will pay me a $1,000,000 surcharge") or are illegal in and of themselves (Such as "You agree to provide 500 grams of cocaine monthly"), or violate the federally protected classes, anything two parties agree to in a contract is legally binding.
Evan,

You are probably right. I guess that means that a contract requiring white males to be paid half as much as other workers would be okay, and that they had to work twice as many hours. Seems strange but then so does much of our current legal system.

OTOH, it is difficult to accept that we can be made to give up our Constitutional rights to defend ourselves by an employment contract.

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evan price
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by evan price »

OhioPaints wrote:Evan,

You are probably right. I guess that means that a contract requiring white males to be paid half as much as other workers would be okay, and that they had to work twice as many hours. Seems strange but then so does much of our current legal system.

OTOH, it is difficult to accept that we can be made to give up our Constitutional rights to defend ourselves by an employment contract.

Ken

Does it make sense that there are the United Negro College fund and specific black fraternal organizations, however if you tried to set up a United Caucasian College Fund or had blatantly open whites-only fraternal organizations, you'd be castigated and destroyed?
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Re: Can a local .gov stipulate "no guns" in a contract??

Post by djthomas »

evan price wrote:Does it make sense that there are the United Negro College fund and specific black fraternal organizations, however if you tried to set up a United Caucasian College Fund or had blatantly open whites-only fraternal organizations, you'd be castigated and destroyed?
Castigated and destroyed (politically and in public perception), perhaps, but probably not legally.

The fraternal organizations are interesting. They're very careful to say that membership is open to any person with an interest in advancing their cause. Kind of an off topic example but there was recently a woman in the news for suing Avis because they offer a rental discount to members of some gay pride club and clearly AVIS is discriminating against her since she's not gay. Avis said "not so fast, we offer the discount to any member of the group. We don't control their membership policies. Go join the group and we'll give you the discount." Turns out she hadn't even tried to join the group, which commented that their membership is open to anybody, regardless of sexual orientation with an interest in advancing gay rights. So what appears to be discrimination on the surface really isn't.

As a practical matter do whites look to join organizations composed of mostly blacks? Generally not which is why you don't hear of cases of whites claiming they were discriminated against by some black fraternal organization. If you started a fraternal club for whites only, then yeah you could be in trouble. You'd have to frame it as open to anybody with an interest in advancing white rights. So long as you consistently accepted and rejected applicants on those guidelines only I don't see how the law could touch you.

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