Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

A sub-forum for the purpose of discussing ORC 9.68 compliance. This sub-forum is strictly for the discussion of progress in individual cities and their respective parks.

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby mreising » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:47 pm

Suckerspawn wrote:
Suckerspawn wrote:
Mr. xxxxxxx,

The Law Department is currently researching your inquiry. You
will be contacted by Assistant City Attorney Mya Bronson once her
research is complete.

Regina D. Blackshear, Paralegal
City of Dayton, Ohio
Department of Law - Civil Division

Brian D. wrote:Suckerspawn, please take this opportunity while waiting to complete some mundane task or other. Like say renovate a few rooms in your home, or something. :wink:

I just had a pleasant phone conversation with Mya Bronson. She called me. Apparently she had not seen my original email. We discussed ORC 9.68 and the specific Dayton Municipal Codes. I explained to her certain vendors were refusing to ship certain products to the City of Dayton because of these laws. She is going to review the codes with the Law Director and get back to me.

Wow, you're quick. I should get you to do the renovations on my house; that project has been dragging on for 4 months.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby Suckerspawn » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:53 am

The initial quick response has not resulted in any changes at this time. I contacted the assistant law director a month ago, with no response. Today, I sent a follow up message to the mayor, the city council, and the law department.
No, I am not a policeman. I am a mercenary praying for peace on Earth.
I don't want a tactical advantage. I want the bad guys to repent and find a new line of work.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby Suckerspawn » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:42 am

Suckerspawn wrote:The initial quick response has not resulted in any changes at this time. I contacted the assistant law director a month ago, with no response. Today, I sent a follow up message to the mayor, the city council, and the law department.



Mr. Xxxxxx,

You will be receiving a response by the middle of next week.


Regina D. Blackshear, Paralegal
City of Dayton, Ohio
Department of Law - Civil Division
101 W. Third Street
P.O. Box 22
Dayton, OH 45401
937-333-4100 (Phone)
937-333-3628 (Fax)


The countdown can begin.
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I don't want a tactical advantage. I want the bad guys to repent and find a new line of work.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby Suckerspawn » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:32 am

I received this from the assistant city attorney.


Thank you for your inquiry. I have reviewed your concerns regarding a perceived conflict between certain sections of the RCGO and ORC 9.68. As you know, any changes to the RCGO must be approved by the Commission of the City of Dayton. A summary of my research will be forwarded to the Commission for their review.


I asked, "Would it be possible to send me the summary of your research also?", and received this reply.

No, it would not be possible. My work product belongs to my employer, the City of Dayton. Thank you again for your inquiry.


Is stuff like this covered by the Freedom of Information Act?
No, I am not a policeman. I am a mercenary praying for peace on Earth.
I don't want a tactical advantage. I want the bad guys to repent and find a new line of work.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby AlanM » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:34 am

If you're interested, Dayton's code is online and according to the site was last updated on May 21, 2015.
Here's the link: https://www.municode.com/library/oh/dayton/codes/code_of_ordinances

I suggest several different searches:
"firearm" -- 29 hits
"gun" -- 7 hits
"weapon" -- 18 hits and produced this: (which has NEVER been revised to be inline with ORC 9.68)
(It still has the affirmative defense language of the pre-CCW state law.)

Sec. 138.02. - Carrying concealed weapons.
(A)
No person shall knowingly carry or have, concealed on his person or concealed ready at hand, any deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance.
(B)
This section does not apply to officers, agents, or employees of this or any other state of the United States, or to law enforcement officers, authorized to carry concealed weapons or dangerous ordnance, and acting within the scope of their duties.
(C)
It is an affirmative defense to a charge under this section of carrying or having control of a weapon other than dangerous ordnance, that the actor was not otherwise prohibited by law from having the weapon, and that any of the following apply:
(1)
The weapon was carried or kept ready at hand by the actor for defensive purposes, while he was engaged in or was going to or from his lawful business or occupation, which business or occupation was of such character or was necessarily carried on in such manner or at such time or place as to render the actor particularly susceptible to criminal attack, such as would justify a prudent man in going armed;
(2)
The weapon was carried or kept ready at hand by the actor for defensive purposes, while has was engaged in a lawful activity, and had reasonable cause to fear a criminal attack upon himself or a member of his family or upon his home, such as would justify a prudent man in going armed;
(3)
The weapon was carried or kept ready at hand by the actor for any lawful purpose and while in his own home;
(4)
The weapon was being transported in a motor vehicle for any lawful purpose, and was not on the actor's person, and, if the weapon was a firearm, was carried in compliance with the applicable requirements of § 138.05(C) of this title.
(D)
Whoever violates this section is guilty of carrying concealed weapons, a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the offender has previously been convicted of a violation of this section or of any offense of violence, or if the weapon involved is a firearm which is either loaded or for which the offender has ammunition ready at hand, or if the weapon involved is dangerous ordnance, then carrying concealed weapons is a felony of the third degree. If the offense is committed aboard an aircraft, or with purpose to carry a concealed weapon aboard an aircraft, regardless of the weapon involved, carrying concealed weapons is a felony of the second degree, and the offender shall be prosecuted according to appropriate state law. (R.C. § 2923.12)
(Ord. 24636, passed 1-16-74)
Cross reference— Penalty, see § 130.99.


Interestingly Re:(C)(4) above -- There IS no § 138.05(C)
EDIT ; Apparently a typo, the actual section is Sec. 138.04. - Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.

Section 138.04 is the pre-CCW wording also.

It looks like most of the laws of Dayton relevant to ORC 9.68 haven't been touched in over 20 years. (Many are dated 1994)
AlanM
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby AlanM » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:45 am

AlanM
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. - RAH
Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order.
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby Suckerspawn » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:59 am

Title XIII Sections 138.02, 138.04, 138.11 and 138.25 are the sections that need updated. There may be others. The assistant city attorney is forwarding her research to the city commission.
No, I am not a policeman. I am a mercenary praying for peace on Earth.
I don't want a tactical advantage. I want the bad guys to repent and find a new line of work.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:14 am

Open records request TO the commission FOR any information they have regarding the invalid laws, including recommendations for changes to such laws from any source.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby calvin56 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:36 pm

I believe any advice from the attorney would be privileged, government entities or not.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:26 pm

calvin56 wrote:I believe any advice from the attorney would be privileged, government entities or not.


The attorney is the one who may have privilege, not the city.

We are not asking the attorney and there are no lawsuits, real estate acquisitions or employee-related issues involved.

We are asking the city for information that involves the operation of the city.


http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2317.02

2317.02 Privileged communications.


And, while a client can't be forced to disclose information that their attorney can't be forced to disclose, there needs to be a presumption that the information would be confidential to begin with.

Law directors make recommendations to city councils and committees all the time that are public records. Why would this particular information be exempt?
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby JediSkipdogg » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:40 pm

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
calvin56 wrote:I believe any advice from the attorney would be privileged, government entities or not.


The attorney is the one who may have privilege, not the city.

We are not asking the attorney and there are no lawsuits, real estate acquisitions or employee-related issues involved.

We are asking the city for information that involves the operation of the city.


http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2317.02

2317.02 Privileged communications.


And, while a client can't be forced to disclose information that their attorney can't be forced to disclose, there needs to be a presumption that the information would be confidential to begin with.

Law directors make recommendations to city councils and committees all the time that are public records. Why would this particular information be exempt?


It seems they can choose to go either way. State ex rel. Dawson v. Bloom-Carroll Local School Dist is a good case in Ohio where the Supremes ruled 7-0 that attorney-client privilege applies to government entities both ways. Those that are releasing it are releasing it most likely for their own benefit. Those that are not are hiding something or just knowing what the law is. You know, kind of like criminals, you're innocent if you talk but guilty if you lawyer up. :wink:
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:53 pm

But Dawson involved a lady that sued the school district, THEN wanted the itemized invoices from the district's law firms.

There is no lawsuit involved for the data from Dayton.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby JediSkipdogg » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:59 pm

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:But Dawson involved a lady that sued the school district, THEN wanted the itemized invoices from the district's law firms.

There is no lawsuit involved for the data from Dayton.


Doesn't matter. She did it via a public records, aka Ohio Sunshine Law, request. She wanted to know what was billed and they declined to release that because attorney-client information was present in the documents being released and they couldn't release the specifics of why it was billed without releasing what was talked about (or the idea of what was talked about).

She didn't make the request in court. She made the request AFTER her court case was done. You are just trying to request documents BEFORE a possible court case. But you are talking about doing it the same way.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby Suckerspawn » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:03 am

Let's see what happens.


Mayor and Commissioners,

One of the city attorneys. Mya Bronson, has informed me she has researched the issue of Dayton Municipal Code Sections which are not in compliance with Ohio Revised Code Section 9.68 regarding firearms and their components. She said she is providing the Dayton City Commission with a summary of her research.

Under the Ohio Open Records Law, §149.43 et seq., I am requesting an opportunity to inspect or obtain copies of that research summary.

If there are any fees for searching or copying these records, please inform me of the cost.  However, I would also like to request a waiver of all fees in that the disclosure of the requested information is in the public interest and will contribute significantly to the public’s understanding of the issue. This information is not being sought for commercial purposes.
 
I would request a prompt response to this request.  If you expect a significant delay in responding to or in fulfilling this request, please contact me with information about when I might expect copies or the ability to inspect the requested records.
 
If you deny any or all of this request, please cite each specific exemption you feel justifies the refusal to release the information and notify me of the appeal procedures available to me under the law.

Thank you for considering my request.
No, I am not a policeman. I am a mercenary praying for peace on Earth.
I don't want a tactical advantage. I want the bad guys to repent and find a new line of work.
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Re: Dayton's firearm owners ID card.

Postby JediSkipdogg » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:51 am

Well written. The only change I would have made is addressing it to their public information officer and finding that person specifically to send it to. Council/Mayor isn't going to be able to do much and it's going to get forwarded about 20 times. Just curious, how did you send it?
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