Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

A sub-forum for the purpose of discussing ORC 9.68 compliance. This sub-forum is strictly for the discussion of progress in individual cities and their respective parks.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

Forum rules
This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

READ THIS BEFORE POSTING
Post Reply
mva1985
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by mva1985 »

The park rules list that no person shall possess or carry a firearm..... sigh

A link to the rules and park address.
http://www.libertytwp.org/parks/2009%20 ... ations.pdf
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by Brian D. »

How can this continue to be the case, at that park of all places??
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
mva1985
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by mva1985 »

Interesting a lot of the parks that are posted this way. They must get their signs from the same place.
Last edited by mva1985 on Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cruiser
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 10911
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Mercer County, Ohio - what is yours?

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by Cruiser »

It takes money to replace signs. And this is not a top priority to them.
Abandon ye all HOPE!
User avatar
AlanM
Posts: 9435
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:38 am
Location: Was Stow, OH now Charlottesville, VA

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by AlanM »

Wow!
We've had our Party In The Park there for six years in a row.
The local police made an appearance at the first couple of PITPs.
(One year they were requested. Seems there was a rumor that Toby Hoover had threatened to disrupt the festivities.)

I'm surprised that they didn't arrest the lot of us. :roll:

They are very well aware that their regulations are not enforceable and are at odds with state law.
Why the pdf hasn't been updated is a mystery to me.
AlanM
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. - RAH
Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order.
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
tjeffries
Posts: 2502
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:57 am
Location: Mercer County

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by tjeffries »

Brian mentioned contacting them when he spoke at the PIP.
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?"-- Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago

To paraphrase George Santayana, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/tripwire.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
FireEMSPolice
*** Banned ***
Posts: 3032
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:49 am
Location: Delaware County, Ohio

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by FireEMSPolice »

I cant believe OFCC would hold a pro-gun/2A event in a place that doesnt want it, evident by still posting rules prohibiting firearms. IIRC, one of the head guys said they kept having problems with the park people about this issue. Why not resolve the issue? It just seems as if they dont want us there or something.
User avatar
MyWifeSaidYes
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5449
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Resurrecting thread !!! :twisted:
MyWifeSaidYes
Javelin Man
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 7481
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:53 pm
Location: Sandusky County

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by Javelin Man »

Holy Dead Thread, Batman! :shock:
Famous last words: "I just drank What?!-Socrates

bruh bruh is slang for "complete and total moron" -sodbuster95

The following is a list of children's books that didn't quite make it to the printing press...
1. What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?
2. Daddy Drinks Because You Cry
3. You Were An Accident
4. Bi-Curious George
User avatar
MyWifeSaidYes
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5449
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Yep, it's an old thread, but I didn't want anyone thinking I started this on my own.

I just want to finish it.


On Monday, June 18th, I left a voicemail for Andy Curmode, Parks Director for Liberty Township.

I asked about firearms rules in township parks.

He called me back the next morning. We had a very nice discussion about my concerns. He tried to let me know that I would not have any problems carrying a firearm in the park.

He even mentioned that Ohioans for Concealed Carry rents out 4 shelters every year for their picnic. I said, "Who?"

He tried to describe the organization. I said, "Well, if they're a concealed carry group, nobody would notice their guns, right?"

He said he wasn't sure. :)


Right before Mr. Curmode called me Tuesday morning (literally about 3 minutes), I sent the following email to him and the trustees and staff of Liberty Township:
Subject: Firearms rules in Liberty Township parks?

To whom it may concern-

Can you please advise me on the rules regarding firearms at Liberty Park
and other parks in Liberty Township?

I prefer to openly carry my handgun in a hip holster. I was advised by
an acquaintance that firearms are not allowed at the parks, whether
openly carried or concealed.

Since this goes against state preemption (ORC 9.68), I was hoping you
could confirm for me what the rules actually are.

As you may know, Ohio Revised Code 9.68 does not allow any laws, rules
or regulations pertaining to the ownership or possession of firearms to
be enacted below the state level.

ORC 9.68 also allows for costs and attorney's fees should your township
be sued under that statute.

I left a voicemail for Mr. Curmode on Monday night, but I thought I
should follow up with this email.

Thanks!

-"MWSY"
June 19,2012

This is the first reply I received:
Sir,
Thank you for the information about our signage to look into; it is
obvious you are aware of some recent changes in the law that are
probably not yet reflected on our signs. We will look into this matter
with gun rights counsel and the County Prosecutor's office and act as
directed by counsel relative to any rules and signage.

Most importantly, I am unaware of any enforcement efforts related to
guns taken by our staff in any regards to the outdated signage (20ish
years) in any manner, ever. Andy Curmode's recently discussed the matter
with you and clarified the rules and has notified me of the concerns
this morning at the staff meeting.

A copy of this email is being sent to Assistant County Prosecutor Betts
for his guidance on rules, and signage related to this matter.

Dave Anderson
Township Administrator
To which I replied:
Mr. Anderson-

I want to thank you and Mr. Curmode for your quick responses. I really
appreciate that!

If your county prosecutor is interested in precedent, I would be happy
to provide that office with a list of Ohio townships, cities and
counties that have recently repealed or amended non-compliant laws
and/or removed or corrected signage in parks.

Could you please have someone contact me when you get the prosecutor's
opinion? An email would be fine.

Thanks for your time!

-"MWSY"
June 19, 2012
I next got an email from an attorney who 'replied to all'. I'm not sure if she is a township employee or just outside counsel. She said:
After conferring with a firearms attorney here is his response:
Mary,

The simplest answer is that Townships have no authority to regulate
firearms. I have a letter I have sent to townships, but it is on the
work computer. I'll forward you the relevant parts when I get to work.
As soon as I get it I will send it to you all. Best, MSC
Reply (to all) from Mr. Anderson:
Mary,

Thanks, staff is reviewing the entire list of rules that are on the
website as well as the smoking question, as well as the firearms
questions with Prosecutor's office. It appears all sources are saying
the same thing; Andy reports that the restriction on handguns in
"buildings" is permissible but the signage indicating restrictions that
indicate the "premises" is now overreaching under the cited ORC section.
Your reaching out to a specialist is appreciated! Chris indicates the
timing is likely be such that we can have this completed and in front of
the BOT unless he runs into some surprises.

Dave

And the attorney replies to all with what may be the letter mentioned earlier:
As a life time NRA member and BFA member-we are certainly working hard
to permit carry everywhere. I hope the following help Cris! Best, MSC


http://www.bricker.com/documents/resour ... nships.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


OHIO'S TOWNSHIP HOME RULE AUTHORITY R.C. 504.04

Township Home Rule Authority is set forth in R.C. 504.04. Townships
derive their power to perform most actions through this statute.
Specifically exempted in this grant of power is the power to regulate
"the possession, use, or sale of firearms."

So from the initial analysis, any attempt to regulate firearms
is void ab initio. In other words, without any power or jurisdiction.
The Township does not even have the threshold authority to regulate
firearm ranges. Thus, this situation viz a viz the Township is likely
resolved via 504.04 without ever even approaching the question of state
preemption discussed above. Stated plainly, Townships have no authority
to regulate firearms.

Just so everyone knows, none of this correspondence was marked as confidential and I was included in the replies.
MyWifeSaidYes
Javelin Man
OFCC Member
OFCC Member
Posts: 7481
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:53 pm
Location: Sandusky County

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by Javelin Man »

Well done, MWSY! It's easy to be proactive at times.
Famous last words: "I just drank What?!-Socrates

bruh bruh is slang for "complete and total moron" -sodbuster95

The following is a list of children's books that didn't quite make it to the printing press...
1. What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?
2. Daddy Drinks Because You Cry
3. You Were An Accident
4. Bi-Curious George
User avatar
MyWifeSaidYes
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5449
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Javelin Man wrote:Well done, MWSY! It's easy to be proactive at times.
I don't understand. This is completely reactive.

I personally did not realize Liberty Park (Liberty Township) had bad firearms rules/laws until Monday night.

Apparently MANY other people on this board, and members and management of OFCC also knew this.

But nobody got the laws fixed.

I also don't understand that.

I would rather have a picnic in a township that CHANGED to follow state laws, than a township that has FLAUNTED state law and ILLEGALLY POSTED their parks. I see no point in celebrating in a location to DARE THEM to arrest us when they have long acknowledged they will not enforce those laws.

THAT accomplishes NOTHING.

Sorry, Jav Man, this was just a rant, not aimed at you. :)
MyWifeSaidYes
User avatar
JediSkipdogg
Posts: 10257
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: Batavia
Contact:

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by JediSkipdogg »

MWSY...I agree 100% with you. The worst problem is I don't care what anyone says at county, township, or city office. As long as the sign is there and/or a law is still on the book, arrest is still possible. Does anyone really think the officer that just graduated from the police academy last week got that memo? They will see the sign, see a gun, and automatic trespassing comes to their mind. And rookie cops are some of the worst IMO for enforcing laws as they just want arrests.

Good job though and let us know if/when it comes down.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
User avatar
MyWifeSaidYes
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5449
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Re: Liberty Twp Park - beautiful park!

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Many times, when I've contacted an entity about their signs and laws, they fix things and don't bother/remember to tell me about it.

Their emails indicate they are going to try to get it on the agenda for the next Board of Trustee's meeting (July 2). I'll keep watch.
MyWifeSaidYes
Post Reply