Hardin County Fairgrounds Posted (Pictures)

[schmieg]

If someone is interested in tackling this, go for it. Myself, I am not wasting my time. The issue is whether the fairgrounds are owned by the county or by an agricultural society 501(c)(3). Most claim to be owned by an ag society and claim that, as a private entity, it may post as it pleases. Now, there is an argument that ag societies are defacto political subdivisions. BUT, unless the ag society agrees with our argument on their own, the only way to get a settlement is to sue. If we sue and win, then the BEST outcome is that the grounds cannot be posted...all other buildings (with the exceptions mentioned in the ORC--restrooms, etc) will still be off limits. Who goes to a fair and doesn't go into a building? Seriously. This means that the animal buildings, the grandstand, the exhibition buildings, food buildings, and more will still be off limits.

And, if the court rules against us and says that ag societies are private, then they can post all they wish.

It just isn't worth the time and effort for the potential benefit. There are much more pressing and permanent issues that affect more people that demand my time.

Feel free to contact the ag society on your own. Search for posts by "cruiser" as he has some references to the ag society being a political subdivison.

Right after HB12 passed, Ken Hanon and I did some research on this issue in regards to another case. There are a fair number of Ohio Supreme Court decisionss that Agricultural Societies are subdivisions of the State.

[teddybear49d]

Seems to be some "buck passing" going on here. I called the safety director today and got the codified ordinances for Kenton and asked if the Fairgrounds were owned by the Ag Society or Hardin County. I was told that Hardin County owned it. So I went ahead a politely informed the person I was talking to that the signage about firearms were posted in error because of orc 9.68 pe-emption and that the office should check it out. I'll follow up with a call in a few days and see what they have to say about it.

ETA: These people didnt seem to know anything about ORC 9.68 as they asked me several times if I had the right number as did the Deputy I talked to on 7/8/10.

[FlyinCedar]

I am guessing this never went anywhere, as I recently moved to Kenton, and the fairgrounds are still posted. Anyone that spoke with someone on this issues before, have an update? Thanks

[JSLACK7851]

.all other buildings (with the exceptions mentioned in the ORC--restrooms, etc) will still be off limits. Who goes to a fair and doesn't go into a building? Seriously. This means that the animal buildings, the grandstand, the exhibition buildings, food buildings, and more will still be off limits. And, if the court rules against us and says that ag societies are private, then they can post all they wish.

I usually regret posting here, but here goes. Why would the buildings be off limits with out any government workers in there? I just wrote a letter to the AG complaining about all the fairs, wouldn't it be easier to have him do the leg work?

He could then bill the Counties, how many would it take b/4 the rest of them fall in line? Isn't this the same AG that filed against Cleveland? Write him the letters, get him to do the leg work, 88 counties in Ohio is a bit much for any organization. But there's only one ELECTED AG. Just my .02.

Here's the page I used: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Cont ... /?from=nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cfranks82]

Latest response from Hardin County govt:

Mr. Franks, in regards to your emails concerning the posting of prohibition on carrying concealed weapons signs on the county fair grounds, the statute that pertains to the posting of the signs is Ohio Revised Code 2923.126 (C)(3)(a) which pertains to leased property of the Commissioners and the authority of the lessee, in this situation the lessee of the fair grounds is the Hardin County Agricultural Society which is not a political subdivision, and the lessee has the authority to post signs prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto the land that they lease. The County Commissioners own the land but it is lease to the Agricultural Society and they have the authority to post the signs which is what they did. The signs were posted by the Agricultural Society, not the County Commissioners. I hope this clarifies your concerns and feel free to contact our office if you have any questions.
Sincerely,

Larry A. Gossard
Paralegal/Office Manager
Hardin County Prosecutors Office

[FlyinCedar]

Hasn't it been held that an Ag Society is in fact a political subdivision? I'm sure it's been posted, but I can't seem to find it. If it could be found and sent to them, maybe it would make a difference

[schmieg]

Hasn't it been held that an Ag Society is in fact a political subdivision? I'm sure it's been posted, but I can't seem to find it. If it could be found and sent to them, maybe it would make a difference

In Greene County Agricultural Society v. Liming, 89 Ohio St 3d 55189 Ohio St. 3d 551; 2000 Ohio 4862000 Ohio 486; 733 NE2d 1141733 N.E.2d 1141; 2000 Ohio LEXIS 20612000 Ohio LEXIS 2061 (2000), Judge Resnick held

We see no reason to disagree with the conclusion reached by the Attorney General in 1988 Ohio Atty.Gen. Ops. No. 88-034 on this point, the first component of our inquiry.4 We hold that a county agricultural society is a political subdivision pursuant to R.C. 2744.01(F).

This was in regard to liability, but the argument could easily be extended to the situation at hand.

[JSLACK7851]

Hasn't it been held that an Ag Society is in fact a political subdivision?

In Greene County Agricultural Society v. Liming, 89 Ohio St 3d 55189 Ohio St. 3d 551; 2000 Ohio 4862000 Ohio 486; 733 NE2d 1141733 N.E.2d 1141; 2000 Ohio LEXIS 20612000 Ohio LEXIS 2061 (2000), Judge Resnick held

We see no reason to disagree with the conclusion reached by the Attorney General in 1988 Ohio Atty.Gen. Ops. No. 88-034 on this point, the first component of our inquiry.4 We hold that a county agricultural society is a political subdivision pursuant to R.C. 2744.01(F).

This was in regard to liability, but the argument could easily be extended to the situation at hand.

Sorry, I figured out why buildings are posted, Doh...

This was the argument I used with Tuscarawas county. AFAIK the signs will be coming down there. I now have a form letter that I will use with other county fairs. If no one is currently pursuing this I will get on it sooner, than later.

Thank you Schmieg, for your case law, by a court of record, that Ag. Society's are indeed a political subdivision, even though we're not talking about pigs. This was the information that makes Ag. Societies public, not private.

[JSLACK7851]

If someone is interested in tackling this, go for it. Myself, I am not wasting my time.

And, if the court rules against us and says that ag societies are private, then they can post all they wish.

It just isn't worth the time and effort for the potential benefit. There are much more pressing and permanent issues that affect more people that demand my time.

Feel free to contact the ag society on your own. Search for posts by "cruiser" as he has some references to the ag society being a political subdivision.

Right after HB12 passed, Ken Hanson and I did some research on this issue in regards to another case. There are a fair number of Ohio Supreme Court decisions that Agricultural Societies are subdivisions of the State.

Since there have been no objections, I'm going to try to get the signs taken down. I've been in contact with the county commissioners office and will get a letter out this afternoon.

[JSLACK7851]

I haven't heard back from any correspondence I sent out, and probably won't. I did find, with further research, that Hardin County Fair is a private company categorized under Organizations.

They have a hierarchical structure, with President, Vice President, Secretary-Treasurer, and so on. They are not a political subdivision under orc.

They are within their rights to post. AFAIK

Unless someone has any other idea's, this is a dead horse.

[cashman966]

I haven't heard back from any correspondence I sent out, and probably won't. I did find, with further research, that Hardin County Fair is a private company categorized under Organizations.

They have a hierarchical structure, with President, Vice President, Secretary-Treasurer, and so on. They are not a political subdivision under orc.

They are within their rights to post. AFAIK

Unless someone has any other idea's, this is a dead horse.

Not according to the State Auditor's 2002 audit

The Hardin County Agricultural Society (the Society) is a body corporate and politic established to
exercise the rights and privileges conveyed to it by the constitution and laws of the State of Ohio.
The Society is a county agricultural society corporation formed under Chapter 1711 of the Ohio
Revised Code.


The reporting entity includes all activity occurring on the fairgrounds. This includes the annual fair,
harness racing during fair week, other year round activities at the fairgrounds including facility
rental, track and stall rental, and community events such as auctions. The reporting entity does not
include any other activities or entities of Hardin County, Ohio

I suppose things could have changed since 2002 but the Ag Society Name is all over the Fair Guide on the Fair web site so it would seem they still are in charge. Where did you find that the Hardin County Fair is a private corporation? The name isn't registered on the Secretary of State's website

[JSLACK7851]

http://www.hardincountyfair.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


2012 DIRECTORS AND OFFICERS

BOB FISH................ PRESIDENT
JANIE SEILER........... VICE PRESIDENT
NANCY MOTTER........ SECRETARY-TREASURE
RAY DAVIS.............. DIRECTOR-AT-LARGE


I'd say its changed since 2002..

[schmieg]

The real question is whether it receives government funding and assistance and performs governmental activities.

[JSLACK7851]

The real question is whether it receives government funding and assistance and performs governmental activities.

Dear Sir:
I can't seem to find where this has any relevance in the ORC. I have found under orc 2923.126 (c) (3) (a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location....

Could ya throw me a bone here, where did you get that information? I can't find anything relevant to govt. funding or activities.

[schmieg]

It's part of determining whether the "owner" is a governmental organization or not.