Loading manual confusion

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Morne
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Loading manual confusion

Post by Morne »

A bit of help, please...

As I was looking through Lee's 2nd Edition I came across some confusing entries:

.44 Spl 200-gr lead bullet SR4756 min 7.0/max 8.2 grains (velocities 838/1002, pressure 13,950 psi max)
.44 Mag 200-gr lead bullet SR4756 min 6.2/max 7.0 grains (velocities 712/797, pressure 9,630 psi max)

Now that just doesn't make a lick of sense. Why would you load LESS powder into the magnum casings to get less pressure and velocity? I would think that they accidentally reversed where these entries belong except that my load work-up from 7.1/8.0-gr gives undeniable special (not magnum) velocities (actually even lower than what the book predicts - though who knows what test barrel length their data is based upon). I'd be afraid to load in the 6.2/7.0-gr region in a magnum case for fear of sticking a bullet in the barrel.

Nor is it the only example. Same cartridges (.44 Spl & .44 Mag) but different powder:

.44 Spl 200-gr lead bullet IMR PB min 5.0/max 6.0 grains (velocities 826/961, pressure 12,843 psi max)
.44 Mag 200-gr lead bullet IMR PB min 4.5/max 5.1 grains (velocities 697/781, pressure 9,630 psi max)

Am I going crazy? What gives?
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Re: Loading manual confusion

Post by WY_Not »

I'd call or fire off an email to Lee and see if they can clear it up. If they don't respond hit up the guys over at Handloader magazine through their Load Data site (https://www.loaddata.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Contact them via email. From their FAQ...
2. What do I do if I can't find the load I am looking for?

If you do not find a specific caliber, please email us at contact@loaddata.com. We will do our best to find data on that caliber and get it online. Most requests are answered within 48 hours. If we have the data in house, we usually get it online within two weeks.
I've dealt with them a couple of times. VERY helpful and knowledgeable and prompt.
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Morne
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Re: Loading manual confusion

Post by Morne »

Sent a clarification request to Lee. Will update upon receipt.
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Re: Loading manual confusion

Post by Sevens »

Considering that load manuals are just a heap of numbers and columns over and over, a misprint seems irrationally possible. One of the cardinal rules of handloading is to double-triple check load data against other sources and try to get a feel for what you read and might wish to replicate.

It'll be interesting to see Lee's response but if I were staring down the same situation, I would simply go top-down with my sources.
First, I'd punch up Hodgdon's Online Reloading Data Center. Then I'd grab my Lyman 49th. Then I would leaf through my old Speer#11, which I know is old school since I got it in 1989. After that I would start pulling out IMR printed guides which I have going back to the mid-1980's.

With that said, I don't load .44 Special and for the most part, I don't do a lot with IMR powders and certainly not SR4756 or PB.

The way the discussion was started, it almost seems like more of a curiosity kind of conversation. If that's the case, I'll just check back and see if it gets resolved.

HOWEVER, if this is an actual load you are chasing and you want help from my sources, let me know and I'll dig up all I can and report back. 8)
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Re: Loading manual confusion

Post by Morne »

Sevens, it isn't just curiosity. I'm working up some .44 loads for coated bullets with a couple cans of oddball powder I have laying around.

Lyman shows a 210-gr lead bullet with SR4756 that uses a LOT more powder in the magnum.
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Re: Loading manual confusion

Post by Sevens »

Now that just doesn't make a lick of sense. Why would you load LESS powder into the magnum casings to get less pressure and velocity?
In thinking about the issue more, I can find some sense in it... It's possible that Lee has very specifically listed some CAS-appropriate loads -- and maybe they simply just don't denote that the loads are for that purpose. Hodgdon absolutely does this, they typically have all of these types of loads in a whole other section titled "Cowboy Action Data" and later IMR guides do the same (no surprise since IMR is under the Hodgdon umbrella), but IMR tends to offer piles of data for Trail Boss and little else these days. Hodgdon shows ".357 Mag" loads under their Cowboy data that runs weaker than .38 Special loads in the regular data area.

In any case, I dug through my printed sources and was a bit disappointed that I have little to offer in help. The best reason is simply that I have never used many of the IMR-brand powders and always leaned to Hercules and Hodgdon, later Alliant and Western/Accurate. Give me a shout-out if you end up with some old Hercules powders and I can give you all the load data that Hercules published in the 1980's! :P

In any case:

Hodgdon 2015 Annual (printed but data seems to match the online source)
.44 Spl, 200gr Cast LRNFP, IMR SR-4756
7.0gr for 838fps @ 8,800 CUP
8.2gr for 1002fps @ 12,600 CUP

No usable data from Lyman 49th, Speer#11, Nosler#6, IMR printed guides (1985, 1990, 2005, 2007)

However, as it might be relevant...
IMR Handloader's Guide (1985 and 1990, same data)
.44 Spl, Hornady 240gr Lead SWC, .430" diameter, Rem 2-1/2 primer, 1.470" COAL and 6.5" barrel tested, with IMR SR-4756
7.5gr, for 760fps @ 13,600 CUP

^I've always considered data for heavier weight (but similarly constructed) bullets to be absolutely SAFE for my own use with lighter bullets... within reason of course. But also keeping in mind that published data printed in 1985/1990 needs to be taken for WHAT IT IS: data developed simply with seemingly "prehistoric" methods, especially any/all data shown in CUP, which has never been known as precise as PSI measured.

Aside from all THAT, and I have probably mentioned this before...
It has been my hands-on experience that loading low pressure, large volume handgun rounds is a little sketchy due to excessive space and powder position. I have absolutely seen this (far more than I ever enjoyed) and have never been comfortable with the erratic results in recoil, sound and chrono-confirmed velocity. Very simply put -- I was making loads (.45 Colt) that would vary from round to round depending on how you tipped up the revolver between shots.

It was author Mike Venturino years back that was an early adopter of the then-new Hodgdon Titegroup powder and he was a big proponent of it for these roles because it seemed, more than any other powder, to ignore powder position and small charges in large cases.

Most of the data I came across while looking for this today was for a 240gr bullet. But using a 200gr bullet... you are otherwise ending up with even MORE internal space, depending obviously upon charge weight, COAL, etc etc.

Should almost go without saying that Trail Boss is irrationally popular for what you are trying to do, but I would be looking at Titegroup. But yes... I understand the "fun, experimenting and GETTING USE out of powder XXX" also, as I have been down that road many times. These exercises have made me a more skilled handloader, I think. :)
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Morne
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Re: Loading manual confusion

Post by Morne »

The reply I got:
The load data in the Lee reloading manual places the highest density (case most nearly filled with powder) and therefore generally the highest velocity loads at the top end of the load data chart under a given bullet grain weight. These loads tend to be the best performing in terms of velocity and accuracy. As you get farther towards the bottom of the section the load density decreases as does chamber pressure, velocity and felt recoil.

Not everyone wants to shoot the highest velocity heaviest recoil loads. Young shooters, new shooters, elderly shooters (there is getting to be more and more of these), paper target shooters, high volume shooters that want to use less powder and several million Cowboy Action shooters that want to shoot low recoil quieter loads all use the data at the lower end of the chart and they use it in most every caliber pistol and rifle. You would be surprised how many 80 and even 90 year old shooters that I talk to every month that are looking for lighter loads to use in the gun that they may have owned most of their lives. They aren't likely to buy a new gun soon. They just want to keep shooting the one they have.

The Load data in the Lee manual is designed to offer loads to people on one end of the spectrum who like to have their hat fly off when they pull the trigger all the way over to Cow Boy Action shooters that are more concerned with low recoil shooting at close range where bulls eye accuracy is not essential. Low power loads also extend case life. Most Cowboy Action shooters taper crimp their low power revolver loads to get even more life out of a case. The taper crimp is plenty strong enough to prevent bullet creep from recoil.

Hope this helps.
Completely missed my point. Guess I'll re-ask my question to Handloader magazine.

I also replied to their email clarifying my question and relaying my .44 Special load data with SR-4756. Hopefully they'll be more helpful.
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