Faster reloading desired

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Morne
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Faster reloading desired

Post by Morne »

So now that I've nailed down several recipes that I use routinely I find that my single stage press is a bit slower than I would like. What is the next logical step up from a Lee single stage? Turret? Or should I just go to a progressive?

Links to shopping websites with good prices on said items appreciated.
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by Dave Shooter »

I think a Dillon 550 is tough to beat. Very easy to change calibers. Capable of good speed. Lifetime warranty.

Dillon doesn't give their dealers much of a price break (they used to only do direct sales). So if you want one for significantly less than retail your best bet may be flea bay or other auction site.
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by SMMAssociates »

Morne:

I went with a Dillon 650 on about October 12, 2012, right before Zero was re-elected and reloads got hard to find.

Problems finding supplies, but I saved a lot of money. Or at least that's what I told the wife. :D

Downside is that while my Dillon was expensive, it didn't include some useful items that should be added, pumping another couple hundred bucks into the mess. ("Strong" mount, roller handle, and a couple other small things. $250 for a case feeder, too, if you want one. I've so far cheaped out on that.)

And then you have to deal with up to $300 to add another caliber, and a fairly complex refit exercise when you do it.

The manual seems to have been written by somebody who'd done a dozen of them - some handling of the parts and looking at the pictures was necessary.

I'm told that the RCBS progressives are just about as good, and a lot cheaper, but my experience is entirely with the Dillon of you don't count a single stage somebody gave me. I keep a decapper in that.

I'm doing .45ACP, 9mm, and .40 S&W right now. You really have to do a few hundred or so of each before swapping calibers if you want to keep your sanity :D. Just between us chickens, you can buy a complete Lee progressive in any given caliber for what it costs (more or less) to add a caliber to the Dillon. 'Course, if space is an issure....

AFAIK, the 550 and 650 are similar enough to look at both. I think the 650's possible a tad better, but mostly I bought mine because I have a local buddy who's had one for about 20 years, and we can share spare parts and knowledge. He calls them occasionally with good luck.

(Some friends and I started buying reloading gear in the late 60's, but never got going - somebody's mother or wife didn't want to hear about gunpowder in the basement. I was casting .38 wadcutters before that fell apart - I could use that furnace, but I have no idea what I did with it. I've been buying bullets from the guy who sold me the Dillon, but he's shutting down.)

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Morne
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by Morne »

'Course, if space is an issure....
Space is not an issue. I have an old kid's dresser/changing table that will serve as my base for the next press. Acres of room, drawers and a cabinet.

Why doesn't anyone seem to like the Lee progressives? Since everything I have right now is Lee I sort of figured I'd stick with the brand as I progressed. Or is this one of those, "Company A makes a good introductory basic unit but Company B is where the real work gets done by folks who know their stuff."
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by JustaShooter »

<Raises hand slowly>

I like Lee Progressive presses... Well, the Lee Pro 1000 anyway, I don't have any experience with their bigger progressive press. The Pro 1000 is a 3-station press so if you like separating the seating and crimping stages or want more than 3 positions for some other reason, then it isn't the right choice. It also can only do shorter rifle cartridges like the .223, so if you want to run a bunch of .30-06, it's not the right choice for you.

But otherwise, I think they are great presses. I've loaded tens of thousands (probably better than 100K) on mine and have had very few issues. It takes a bit of understanding of the press and a bit of tweaking to get it running smoothly at first, and sometimes needs a bit of adjustment, but my understanding is that pretty much all progressives are like that.

Changing from one cartridge to another is a matter of a couple of minutes if you do like me and have a carrier assembly and die turret for each cartridge, which runs something under $50 plus dies if I recall. Or, you could have an entire separate press for each if you have the room.

I've added a case collator and Autodisk Pro powder measure (don't bother with the standard Autodisk, get the Pro) and can run around 400 cases per hour after setting up for a run. I don't try to run as fast as I can, I'm pretty deliberate so I might be able to speed up if I wanted, but that's plenty fast for me as I like to see the powder in each case before placing a bullet on top. I have a light mounted to shine into the case to make sure I don't under or over charge by mistake.
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Morne
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by Morne »

I prefer to crimp separately so a 3-hole won't work. The Lee Load Master is a 5-hole, though. :idea:

I can live with the limitation of .223 cartridges and shorter. Right now .223 is the longest cartridge I reload with .300 AAC BLK being my only other rifle round set of dies. I really doubt that I will get big into MBR cartridges and/or magnum rifle rounds.

The 4-hole turret presses still hold some appeal for me. I just wonder if this is an unnecessary intermediate step is all.
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by JustaShooter »

Morne wrote:I prefer to crimp separately so a 3-hole won't work. The Lee Load Master is a 5-hole, though. :idea:
I have considered getting one myself, a friend has one and used it to load a boatload of .38 for his bullseye league and really liked it.
Morne wrote:I can live with the limitation of .223 cartridges and shorter. Right now .223 is the longest cartridge I reload with .300 AAC BLK being my only other rifle round set of dies. I really doubt that I will get big into MBR cartridges and/or magnum rifle rounds.
I don't know what the Loadmaster is capable of but it doesn't sound like it would be a problem for you anyway.
Morne wrote:The 4-hole turret presses still hold some appeal for me. I just wonder if this is an unnecessary intermediate step is all.
I think it would be - unless you are not mechanically inclined or have an aversion to a bit of tweaking and tinkering to get the press set up and running. I think if you went that direction you would be moving on to a full progressive in short order.
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by BobK »

I have had the Lee Loadmaster since I first started hand loading. I like the quick and inexpensive caliber changes. I've loaded 10s of thousands of rounds in a half dozen calibers.

One aspect people new to progressives tend not to think through is auto indexing. It is impossible to double charge a case with powder when the press auto indexes on each pull of the handle. Other presses, such as the Dillon 550 are hand indexed, which leaves the process vulnerable to double charges.

When comparing costs be sure to add up the costs for doing all the calibers you intend to load.
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by Whirlwind06 »

I had a Lee progressive, had so many squibs and unprimed rounds I gave up and sold it. My biggest problem
with it was that the priming and powder drop are out of the line of sight. (maybe other progressive presses are the same) I'm sure if I kept tinkering with it I would have gotten it working but I wanted ammo not another project.

I went back to using 2 single stage presses. About a year ago I got a Lee classic turrent, not as fast a progressive but the dies move around the case and I have more control over the process. For the amount I shoot it fits my needs.
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by JustaShooter »

BobK wrote:One aspect people new to progressives tend not to think through is auto indexing. It is impossible to double charge a case with powder when the press auto indexes on each pull of the handle.
It is still possible to do, at least with the Pro 1000, if you short stroke it since the indexing happens in the last part of the upward stroke of the handle. That, and having the powder measure bind up and short a cartridge, is why I mounted a light to shine down into the case for visual inspection before placing the bullet on top of each case. As I recall, there is a die that can make sure the right powder charge is in a case or it prevents indexing, but that takes yet another turret position...
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by Sevens »

Many ways to skin this cat. A turret press is an upgrade in many ways but I am not particularly sold on the idea that it makes a radical increase in production -- I think the Lee Classic Turret Press (specifically... and no other turret press made) is a fantastic choice, but it may not ramp up the speed as much as you'd like. The true genius in the Lee Classic Turret is the quick-swappable turrets -AND- the low cost of the turrets. Lyman... Redding... and anyone else's turret press is a farce, IMO, compared to the Lee because their turret is not quick-swappable and they don't even market extra turrets. If you CAN buy "extra" turrets, they would be royally cost prohibitive and nothing about them would switch quickly. The only place I can see any sense in a Lyman or Redding turret press is the handloader who only loads two different cartridges... EVER.

A Dillon is likely the finest machine you would purchase for home use... but there is nothing "low cost" about them. A worthwhile investment and you can increase your production rate as long as you are happy to keep throwing money at them. A solid 550 or 650 all by itself will definitely speed up your output by quite a margin and it is absolutely affordable. Where the money gets "interesting" is in adding calibers and making caliber switches -FAR- easier by dedicating tool heads and measures to each caliber. Doing that ramps up the costs by hundreds of dollars. And if you have more money to spend, adding case feeder and bullet feeder REALLY speeds up the production but the money get comically high. The engineering and build quality of a Dillon is good enough that it practically makes you loathe every other press on the market.

Most folks who like the idea of a Dillon and wish to use something better than a Lee progressive settle on the Hornady Lock 'n Load AP. In witnessing these conversations and threads a BILLION times, the bottom line seems to me that most folks who use the Hornady progressive genuinely like it a lot. The only folks who really don't like the Hornady are the folks who greatly prefer the Dillon. I would hedge a bet that says very few folks go FROM a Hornady to a Dillon.

The Lee Progressive presses are, IMO, an acceptable LOW BUDGET way to introduce yourself to progressive loading. They require the kind of operator who can pay attention to many little bits of it, who enjoys troubleshooting small issues and has the patience to tweak it here & there to make it work. I have not used the Loadmaster, but Bobk has a heap of experience with it, likely more than anyone else active here. I hear the biggest weakness in the Loadmaster is it's priming system. As I haven't used one, I will reserve comment on it. Lee Pro-1000? Next post!

In my next post... I'll tell you my grand idea and how it worked out.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Post by Sevens »

I needed: serious upgrade in production output
I required: a workable, sensible budget
I demanded: zero loss in the quality of the ammo I produce. And I have high standards for my ammo.

Because I was actively producing ammo across more than a dozen different handgun calibers... the budget was going to get simply annihilated by caliber changes if I went with either a Hornady or a Dillon. Even if you go the extremely long and slow caliber change route and attempt to get by with the least amount of tool heads... I was going to be spending a chunk of change simply on shell plates for each different case head size.

The other serious problem that I had was that my current method gave me a couple genuine edges in the QUALITY of my ammo -- my Lyman 55 powder measure is my absolute favorite tool at the bench and I have heap of faith in it. I also live by the ability to meter out 50 cases in a tray and have the ability to eyeball all 50 of those pieces to ensure not only that they all have powder... but that every case has a very similar level of powder. For sure, I can't see less than a full grain difference in powder level, but I can easily see large differences. Over pressure rounds and squib loads DO NOT HAPPEN at my bench. For sure, I have stuck a few bullets in gun barrels... but it wasn't a powder drop error... it was me experimenting with horribly low powder charges, light bullets and poor combinations. But sticking a bullet in the TEST PHASE of ammo development is simply part of the process. It is testing, afterall.

And there is one more facet in ammo quality that I need, like and pretty much DEMAND: and that is the feel in my press lever when seating and/or crimping a round of ammo. That feel and feedback is important to my process because I know that I have the case mouth tension/bullet pull that I demand and I know that I have consistency from round to round because I can feel it (easily!) by the feedback in the lever.

With all that said, I was not willing to move to full progressive because I lose both that press handle feedback and the ability to handle powder in the way I want.

So I designed for myself... the semi-progressive method of loading. I took a Lee Pro-1000 and I dedicated it as a brass-prep machine. It does not handle powder, it does not seat bullets. For me, it de-primes brass, sizes brass, primes each case and flares each case mouth. And not only does it do this with multiple pieces and auto-advance, every operation listed happens either with each upstroke or downstroke of the lever. And maybe the biggest bonus and speed addition is that I handle each piece of brass far less. I drop pieces in one at a time and it auto-ejects them to be collected.

I charge cases with my Lyman 55 and I seat bullets with my Lee Classic Cast. I load all bottleneck rifle (not a heap of it) on my Lee Classic Cast.

The budget is safe because all the dies are already paid for... now each size die and flare die is installed in it's own quick-swap turret ($5 used, like $12 new?) and a slew of shell plates cost some money but they are the cheapest shell plates of -ANY- brand. Of course the press itself is the lowest priced progressive on the market.

With this setup, I have processed well in excess of 100,000 rounds and have strictly cataloged 15 to 20,000 rounds annually over the last 5+ years. Across all of the following... some more than others, obviously: .32 Auto, .327 Federal, .380 Auto, 9mm, .38 Super, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, 10mm, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .45 Auto, .460 Rowland... and I use it to prime brass in .223, .30 Carbine, .460 & .500 S&W Magnum.

I haven't actually added up the total dollars invested... but I would be willing to bet I could come in under the cost of a one-caliber Dillon 650 with everything, and I can do all the ones listed above.

My setup is not as fast as any Dillon. My tools are not near the quality of any Dillon. But I would happily lay down cash on the quality and performance of my ammo up against any handloads... and if I was going up against something like Freedom Munitions, I would also put a thousand bucks of CASH BET on my ammo... cause their stuff is junk. :P

My log says I am running behind a typical pace here in 2015... I have 9,988 rounds loaded through today.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by Morne »

Wow, using a 3-hole progressive as a brass prep center. :idea:

I'm guessing the first hole is a universal decapper, then the resizer and then the flare?

I like that approach, but am in the middle of changing scales as I didn't like my old one. I ended up chasing powder weights rather than trusting that the same volume was generally being thrown. Now that I have set recipes that are firmly in the middle of the published loads I really don't sweat a tenth of a grain either way as much as I did during load development. Of course, the OCD monster in me wants to know, so I have a more accurate scale en route. :mrgreen:

I just got used to using the 50-count blocks to do as you say, charge each prepped case and then flashlight all of them together to look for oddballs. Before that I was using the powder-through-flare die to charge cases. Either way can work, I suppose, but I like being able to SEE IT. I understand some folks with a 5-hole leave one station blank right between chargiwng and bullet seating so that they can look into each case. Reasonable idea that would work on a Lee Loadmaster. :idea:

I'm really leaning towards a Lee Loadmaster at this point. I could use it as a brass prep center until I work out those bugs then add the charging and bullet seating/crimping when confidence is higher. With 5 holes I have plenty of flexibility including the option for a blank "inspection station" to assuage any fears.

I will now add the Hornady to my list to investigate but I think I ruled out the RCBS and Dillon at this point.

Turrets are also out.
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by dl1911 »

I've been very happy with my Hornady LnL Progressive. 5 stations, auto indexing. Can change calibers with same primer (38 to 9mm) in a couple of minutes, 5 minutes if I have to change primer size. I can make 400-500rds an hour if I work at it although usually settle for 200-300 with lots of breaks. That's without a case or bullet feeder. Last six years I've up over 70,000rds total in various calibers (.380, ,38Spl, 357Mag, 9mm Luger, .40S&W, 10mm, .357SIG, .45Auto). Lifetime warranty and no headache customer support just like Dillon. Primer punch got stuck once early on and I kept right on pulling. Called them on Monday with the part numbers from the manual that broke and all they wanted to know is where to send it and when I asked for a spare in case it happened again, no problem. I usually use Dillon dies with an RCBS expander die. Would definitely recommend it and I believe you also get 500 bullets as part of a rebate when you buy the press as well.
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Re: Faster reloading desired

Post by Morne »

Used Lee Loadmaster on EBay

Is this a good deal?

Of course, I already have all 3 of the die sets for calibers this auction includes so that's needless duplication.

If I buy new I'll get one with 9x18Mak, .30M1 Carbine or 7.62x39mm dies.
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