Issue with CCI pistol primers

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glocksmith
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Issue with CCI pistol primers

Post by glocksmith »

Hoping someone here can help. I'm getting what I'll call "double cratering" on some vintage CCI primers I bought off of someone who shot matches back in the late 80's and early 90's. We were shooting handloaded .357 and I noticed that on my Dad's just fired brass, the primer had a pinhole at the bottom and appeared to have some carbon inside the depression. I warned him about it, though he kept on shooting. I was shooting my revolver using the same primers and when I now look at the fired cases under magnification, there is the usual bowl shape indentation....but there is a smaller bullseye-like indentation centered at the bottom. It didn't go all the way through, but there is a thin, raised ring of metal around the smaller indentation. I've not seen this with any of the other reloads I've fired in the past - be they rifle or pistol primers. I'm no expert, as my non-technical language demonstrates above, but I'm thinking the metal may be too soft. I tried to research online for any recalls or past problems with CCI pistol primers...but the late 1980's is so far back that nothing is showing up. Has anyone ever seen this and are these particular primers unsafe? Thanks for any advice.
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mreising
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Re: Issue with CCI pistol primers

Post by mreising »

Were these loads that were developed for another primer, either non-CCI or current ones. If you just used the "new" old-primers with load data you developed for something else, they may have characteristics that are leading your load to be higher pressure. Any time you change a component in the mix, you should work the load up, especially if you plan to be at or near maximums. Do you have other loads that are identical except for the primer? If so, check velocities and compare; if these are higher velocity that may also be a clue to higher pressure, in addition to the pressure signs already showing in the primer.
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glocksmith
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Re: Issue with CCI pistol primers

Post by glocksmith »

Thanks mreising. Yes, I got the data from the Lyman manual (which uses another primer) but I purposely backed them down a few grains from the max loading. I always look for flattening as a first sign of high pressure - and none of that was showing at the range - cases weren't sticky during extraction either. They look perfectly normal when viewed with the naked eye - but under 20x lens - the little indentation is obvious. Looking at the data in the same Lyman manual, it does seem that CCI in general is a bit hotter than the others....dunno why I never considered that during loading :oops: . I've got so many different brands and vintages of primers (and loading manuals going back to the 60's) that it is hard to keep up. I'll definitely take your good advice and reload a few test cartridges with a significantly reduced charge.

Come to think of it, we were kind of pushing it. 17 grains of 2400 and a 110gr JHP is a bit hot. We had the best flash and BANG of anyone at the indoor range :mrgreen:
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Dave Shooter
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Re: Issue with CCI pistol primers

Post by Dave Shooter »

Pictures may be the best way to get advice.


Based on description not sure if you're getting pierced primers or not.

I got into a batch of old Remington primers once that gave quite a few problems in what had previously been a fine load. Wound up with a pock marked pistol breech face before discovered problem.
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Sevens
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Re: Issue with CCI pistol primers

Post by Sevens »

Pictures would be a nice addition but I really doubt it would change my position on this.

I began handloading with exactly late 80's CCI small pistol primers and I have also (on a few occasions) purchased older lots of unused primers. Last October, I bought 10k of Winchester small rifle primers... 5 from late 80's and 5 from early to mid 90's. I have no concerns with them.

Also:
primer "reading" is a seriously unscientific method of making conclusions. I have seen TRENDS in places, but conclusions are extremely difficult to reach and especially in handgun rounds (as opposed to bottle neck rifle)

If you don't see genuine leakage or burst primers, and primers are not falling out of pockets (stretched pockets) and the number ONE indicator of high pressure isn't presenting (difficult extraction) than I would be fairly confident that this is much ado about nothing.

For sure, I applaud the attention to detail and the concern in what you see...
But I truly believe that reading primers in handgun loading is very much overblown.

If I built a load and fired it and the primers appeared as xxxxx
and then I cranked up that load (properly, safely) using ALL of the same components and fired it in the SAME handgun, with only an increasing powder charge and THEN there was a noted visual difference in appearance...

THAT would be (to me), the best and most quality use of the "technique" of primer reading.

But if you change headstamp/brass, or powder type, or the gun you shoot 'em in-- and more than ANYTHING, if you change the primer itself?!

IMO, the differences approach meaningless.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
glocksmith
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Re: Issue with CCI pistol primers

Post by glocksmith »

Thanks Dave and Sevens. Pics would be nice, but I lack the hardware (and skill) to get good pics from down inside a tiny primer. Yeah Sevens, the age of the primers doesn't concern me too much - I've got lots of old components and I actually favor them when making loads that will be used for importat purposes :D My plan at this point is to use the same components with a much reduced powder charge - then I can examine those after firing.
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