How often do you weigh your powder charge?

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Morne
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How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by Morne »

So far I have weighed every single powder charge thrown into a casing. Every. Single. One.

I realize that is probably overkill. I know from a process control standpoint you can reduce testing frequency once you know you have a fairly well established technique.

Aside from you folks with progressive presses, since I use a single stage, how often do you check your powder charge weight? Every case? Every other case? Every tenth?
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by JustaShooter »

I use a progressive press with a volumetric powder measure (Lee Pro 1000 with Auto Disk Pro), but I think my approach might still be valuable to you.

When I first set up for a new powder or charge weight/volume, I run a few fired cases (with expended primers) through the measure and dump the powder back into the hopper (without bothering to measure) to settle it down. Then, I run a fired case through and weigh it. Assuming the charge is where I want it, I dump it back into the hopper and start a case from the first stage and check it. Assuming it is OK, I load up for production and check every 10 for consistency for the first 50-100 cartridges. If I don't see any problems with consistency (usually the case), I reduce the frequency of my checks to every 50 or so. If I'm loading enough to need to refill the hopper even though I don't let it get below about 1/4 full, after refilling I re-check 1, then every 10, then back to every 50.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by Sevens »

I spend a good 10 minutes dumping -MANY- charges and weighing them, and I do it in a manner that gives me a better example of what will actually go in to my ammo. By that I mean... I don't baby the handle with a half-full hopper. Instead, I fill the hopper 100% and then I meter out 4-5 pieces and I only weigh that 5th piece and then I repeat that same exercise 2-3 more times until I'm satisfied with the charge that I am dropping. I flip the lever on my measure exactly as I will when making ammo.

And then, I will take a charged tray of 50 and dump one random pick from that try in to the scale and DAGNAMMIT, that charge better make me happy.

After that, I'll do one per 50 or maybe get lazy and do one per 100. However, I know my different powders very well with a lot of experience and I know that some of them will meter more consistently than some others and always will.

For me, holding a full tray of 50 under direct light "proves" to me that I've either got 50 fantastic rounds, or I've got 50 that are going to be hell.
Obviously, looking at powder levels will not show you a 0.5 grain variance, but it will show a double-charge or an empty case.

Just as important?
MORE important?
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And my wasted days with any electronic scale for powder charges are OVER. I don't care if it costs $800, if it's an electronic scale, it's going to give trouble at some point. Gravity is a fantastic constant here on the planet (so far!) and I love taking advantage of that constant.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by Morne »

That begs another good question... :idea:

What tolerance do you permit when weighing? Say you've got a 5.7-gr load, is anywhere within 5.6-5.8 OK?

How about for a 14.0-gr load, is the tolerance more like 13.8-14.2?

Presume that we're talking about loads safely under maximums where a couple tenths won't blow up anything.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by Sevens »

For me, that answer depends on a lot of things. Depends on what round I'm loading...
If it's .380 Auto, I won't accept much variance. Small space, wimpy little pistols that shoot it.

If it's .38 Special, it's a low pressure round to begin with and it has GARGANTUAN space inside to mask slight variances and in a lot of cases (but not all, certainly) I'm shooting them in handguns spec'd for .357 Mag, double the max chamber pressure.

In .40 S&W where there's not even a HAIR'S width of extra space inside and a 35k PSI round being shot in handguns, some of which have KABOOM history?! :shock: :lol: Yeah, I don't tolerate variances. Here, I use a powder that I know meters well. (in .40cal, I use Alliant Power Pistol)

If you're making full magnum loads in revolver rounds with PROPER slow-burning powders? The max-end is far more predictable and trust-worthy than trying to make hot loads with silly fast powders... and a two or three-tenths swing will not make a cartridge erupt. But load .44 Magnum at ballstothewall with Titegroup and you're walking the fine line of stupidity. If you're using H-110, some loads are dang near close to being compressed. A published compressed load is a hint (not all too obvious!) that you are working with a powder that CANNOT be overloaded with some of the bullet weights! Not a bad safety feature, and it's built-in! 8)
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by BobK »

I usually use Lee's Pro Auto Disk with either one disk or the adjustable charge bar, which means I am dropping charges based on volume, not weight.

I believe that you need to measure the statistical process control for each powder type and approximate charge level you want to use. As you may recall from general statistical theory, for n=30, one can get statistically meaningful results.

So if I have a new powder and and a new load (say I want to drop 5.0 grains), I will start with dropping 30 consecutive powder charges, weighing each one, and looking for outliers.

If the initial sample looks reasonable, then I will weigh every 10th charge. After about 15 of those sample (i.e., 150 rounds), if all of them have been in range I will start weighing every 25th charge. After another 500 rounds or so, I'll weigh every 50th round.

However, and this is critical, I still visually verify the powder level in every single case. When I first started handloading, I had a couple of squib loads where I had primer only and no powder. That is when I started visually verifying every single case. When you look at a few thousand cases, it is immediately obvious if the powder level is significantly wrong.

Now, I mention n=30 for a new powder/charge combination. I am not talking about moving the load from 5.0 to 5.1 grains. I mean a substantial change. For example, if I am loading 14.0 grains of Alliant 2400 in a .357 mag case and have verified that it gives statistically reliable results, I would still redo a brand new 30 sample test if I was going to drop 23.0 grains in a .44 Rem Mag case.

For example, I verified that Clay's drops very reproducibly from a 0.61 cavity disk with Lee, but it is totally unreliable in a 0.31 cavity hole. That smaller hole creates problems with that powder. Similarly, the Lee Adjustable Charge bar is completely unreliable for dropping 3.7 gr of Clays, but is totally reliable dropping 25 grains of H110.

Here are some test samples and results I posted about 5 years ago discussing this:

http://forums.loadmastervideos.com/foru ... s&start=33" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another excellent article of interest are LASC's excellent Chapter 6.4 Powders And Powder Measures.

Bottom line, I will not knowingly choose a powder and charge combo that I know to drop unreliably. There are too many good powders that meter like water to waste my time and create risk by trying to use poor metering powders.

You asked for "within range". I agree with Sevens it also depends on case size. However, I consider +/- 0.1 grains to be the tightest limit I could possibly do because my scale is accurate to a tenth. I do not get excited if an occasional sample is +/- 0.2 grains, as it is an outlying anomoly. However, if it was consistently +/- 0.2 grains, then that starts saying the process is poorly controlled. For example, consider these two data series:

5.0, 5.2, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9, 5.0, 5.0, 5.0, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9, 5.0, 4.8, 5.0, 5.0, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9, 5.0, 5.0, 5.0, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9, 5.0, 5.0, 5.0, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9

This first sample exhibits good process control:
n=30
mean 4.99
std dev 0.069
95% confidence (3 sigma) 4.8 to 5.2 grains.

This second series also has a low of 4.8 and a high of 5.2 with a similar mean. However, the std deviation is almost double the first sample and the 95% confidence interval is also double. I would not consider a potential range of 0.8 grains to be considered good process control.

5.0, 4.8, 5.1, 5.2, 4.9, 5.0, 4.8, 5.2, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9, 5.0, 4.8, 5.0, 4.8, 5.2, 5.0, 4.9, 5.0, 5.0, 5.0, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9, 5.0, 4.8, 5.2, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9,

n=30
mean = 4.99
std dev = 0.124
95% confidence 4.6 to 5.4 grains.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by JustaShooter »

Agreed. visual verification is critically important. I have one of those Photon keychain lights that comes with a magnetic clip holder that I attach to my press so I can see each powder charge level before I place the bullet on the case. You'd be surprised how calibrated the human eye is to such things - sure, you won't see .5 grain but if it looks "off" it probably is.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by Werz »

Each of the first ten, then every ten, and every five if I see significant variance. Visual confirmation on every cartridge avoids empties and doubles.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Depends on what I'm loading for. Handgun rounds I can visually see every round so I weigh the first ten to give me a good visual reminder then weigh every 25 rounds. More than a .2 various and I pitch it then check everything and start the process over weighing ten in a row.

With my .223 rounds, I do the same thing but test every 10 rounds and then throw all finished rounds onto my electronic scale. It's too hard to see into the bottleneck (I'm looking at setting up a miniature camera somehow) which is why I throw every round onto the scale and that lets me know if I have powder or not. It's impossible to double load due to needing ~25 grains of powder, so I'm not worried about a double charge, I'm just worried about no charge.

For my .300 Win Mag, each load is weighed out by hand as I'm shooting for accuracy there. Everything is measured and kept identical. I'm very picky on these loads as I didn't pay a small fortune to get semi-accurate, I want precision accuracy.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by glocksmith »

Morne wrote:So far I have weighed every single powder charge thrown into a casing. Every. Single. One. I realize that is probably overkill.
Your'e not alone. I do the same thing - and will continue to. I suppose if I was loading many hundreds of rounds at a time for competitions or something, I might change my tune. As it is, I only load a handful of expensive big-bore rifle and handgun cartridges at each session, so the extra time and effort isn't much of an issue.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by Morne »

glocksmith wrote:
Morne wrote:So far I have weighed every single powder charge thrown into a casing. Every. Single. One. I realize that is probably overkill.
Your'e not alone. I do the same thing - and will continue to. I suppose if I was loading many hundreds of rounds at a time for competitions or something, I might change my tune. As it is, I only load a handful of expensive big-bore rifle and handgun cartridges at each session, so the extra time and effort isn't much of an issue.
Good point, the quantity one is loading at a sitting matters. The largest number of rounds I have ever made at once has been about 150. I use a single stage press so that took some time.

I am occasionally intrigued by the big, fancy progressive presses. Honestly, I don't shoot enough to justify one. Maybe some day.

As it stands now I can load in my spare time and it is a pleasant way to get away from all the other pressures in my life. If I find a spare 30 minutes I'll run down to my loading bench and do one discrete step in the process. Then I write myself a note as to where these pieces are in the process and leave it with them.

Most weeks I load more than I shoot.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by Klingon00 »

Werz wrote:Each of the first ten, then every ten, and every five if I see significant variance. Visual confirmation on every cartridge avoids empties and doubles.
^This is what I do more or less. If it's a load and setup I'm familiar with and it gives me consistent results, I may go as far as 20-50 between checks after the initial first 10-15 checks.

I mostly load common auto pistol cartridges like 9mm and 45acp. I feel it is most important to visually check the powder level before placing the bullet as a squib load is a far bigger danger since double loads are virtually impossible due to case size. I also use a turret style press for pistol which makes mistakes like double charges very difficult to do as well.

For rifle, I use a reloading tray and visually inspect each charged case with a flashlight to check powder level. I came real close to serious trouble once before I learned that the reloading tray is essential for loading single stage (Which I use my turret press in single stage mode for rifle).
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by stephen45-70 »

i tend towards using dippers more often then i do a powder measure , my routine with dippers is to dip about 25 charges , weigh the first 5 and about 5 more random charges to be sure i am keeping a consistnt volume of powder , then dump them all and start over from the beginning checking a few random samples as i go along .

but like sevens my practices change based on what i am loading , small low volume cases with fast powders get much much more care put into them .

a lot of what i load is black powder , i could realy care less what the actual powder charges weigh with it , but i am very carefull to keep powder volume consistant ... volume loading has always gave me much better loads with bp then weight loading .
and a lot of my process for loading match ammo with it would drive most people bonkers .

i have differant theories on smokeless rifle loads , mostly based off what powders i am using , if i am using faster powders i tend to weigh every charge , slower powders i revert back to loading by volume and ignoring minor weight veriances .with emphasis on keeping consistant volumes .
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by walnut red »

Most of my pistol reloading is on an old Dillon 450. Once I'm set up for a specific caliber I typically run a few thousand before I change calibers. After the initial powder charge is set and verified I'll do another check at 100 rounds. After that I only check at the start of each run, so maybe every 500 rounds or so. When I hear people obsess about a 0.10 of a grain I wonder exactly how accurate their measuring equipment is. We have a small R&D lab where I work and all of the scales are professionally calibrated quarterly. While I use check weights my reloading scale has not been professionally calibrated since it left the factory a couple decades ago.
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Re: How often do you weigh your powder charge?

Post by CoronaGold111 »

I have been loading for two or three years. I am still a newb. I only load a thousand or so rounds in a year. I weigh each charge and visually verify.

To Sevens: I realize this means I need to return the powder measure you loaned me. ;)
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