Red Dot Loads

To learn and introduce new loaders. Tips and tricks from old timers.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

User avatar
Morne
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 10631
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Wayne County

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Morne »

***CHRONY DATA***

79 Degrees F, 73% Relative Humidity, 29.83" Hg

.44 SPL 240-gr CPFP, CCI-300 LPP, 5.2-gr Red Dot, 1.453-1.460" COAL
Taurus Model 44 with 6.5" Ported Barrel
805.7, 781.4, 769.3, 770.2, 774.2 - AVERAGE = 780.2 fps - ES = 36.4

.44 SPL 240-gr CPFP, CCI-300 LPP, 5.4-gr Red Dot, 1.452-1.461" COAL
Taurus Model 44 with 6.5" Ported Barrel
786.4, 788.4, 783.4, 807.3, 776.5 - AVERAGE = 788.4 fps - ES = 30.8

.44 SPL 240-gr CPFP, CCI-300 LPP, 5.6-gr Red Dot, 1.450-1.458" COAL
Taurus Model 44 with 6.5" Ported Barrel
802.0, 812.6, 827.4, 836.7, 775.7 - AVERAGE = 810.9 fps - ES = 61.0

By comparison the CCI Blazer 200-gr GDHP averaged at 899.0 FPS. Federal 200-gr SWCHP averaged at 820.7 FPS. My usual 6.3-gr W-231, 240-gr Xtreme CPFP with CCI-300 LPP handload averaged 801.2 FPS.

The 5.4-gr Red Dot load certainly has been confirmed as my preferred. Not only does it give velocities very similar to my pet load with W-231 it also had the tightest spread.
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Footsoldier in the Conservative Insurrection of the GOP.

Remember, only you can prevent big government!
User avatar
Sevens
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 7526
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am
Location: Far East Side of CBus

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Sevens »

Always enjoy reading these updates & additions.

If you have settled on Red Dot for the long term, next logical step may be to buy a jug of Alliant Promo. ATK techs assure me that load data is the same, interchangeable by weight (but not by volume.) Promo is sold ONLY in the 8-lb jug and is probably the single lowest priced commercial (non-milsurp, non-pulldown) powder per pound on the market.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
User avatar
Morne
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 10631
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Wayne County

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Morne »

Sevens wrote:Always enjoy reading these updates & additions.

If you have settled on Red Dot for the long term, next logical step may be to buy a jug of Alliant Promo. ATK techs assure me that load data is the same, interchangeable by weight (but not by volume.) Promo is sold ONLY in the 8-lb jug and is probably the single lowest priced commercial (non-milsurp, non-pulldown) powder per pound on the market.
Oddly enough, the question of W-231 versus Red Dot has been bouncing around in my head recently as well.

I finally found an 8-lb jug of W-231 and snapped it up. As you say, Promo is widely available in the jug sizes and was even during the shortages.

I seem to prefer the Red Dot for my .45 ACP loads. After this most recent experiment with .44 Spl I might have to say the same thing. However, I think that .38 Special is another matter altogether.

In fairness, most of my .38 Special loading of late has been with Trail Boss rather than W-231, but that was because of erratic results with Red Dot (not to mention change in primers). But that brings me back to a point you made some time ago that Red Dot seems to really shine when you need a decent amount of it, not for little loads in small calibers. Seeing as how the lowest Red Dot load I charge today is 4.9-gr (in my .45 ACP pet load) there seems to be credence to this approach. Also, it takes less Red Dot (by weight) than W-231 for both my .45 ACP and .44 Spl preferred loads. So even if these two powders cost the same per pound the edge would have to go to Red Dot for those calibers where it works reasonably well (i.e.: medium bore and up).
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Footsoldier in the Conservative Insurrection of the GOP.

Remember, only you can prevent big government!
User avatar
Sevens
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 7526
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am
Location: Far East Side of CBus

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Sevens »

Red Dot and W231 may have a similar price per pound... if you substitute Promo for Red Dot, the difference in price will be LARGE. Promo is likely to be far easier to find & buy also.

I may have mentioned it elsewhere...
It took me a couple decades-plus (literally) but I have finally learned my lesson with large flake powders in .38 Special: just no good enough reason to bother with them anymore. Small flake? For sure! But the larger flake powders in .38 loads just aren't rock-solid consistent enough for me when I have so many better choices. They don't drop as well from a measure and they don't ignite as uniformly as I demand... ESPECIALLY in light bullet and light-velocity (low pressure) .38 Special loads. So the "Dot" powders, the Promo, the Trail Boss, no more of that for me in .38 Special.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
User avatar
evan price
Forum Janitor
Forum Janitor
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Westfield, Ohio

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by evan price »

I've been banging the Promo drum now for about 4 years. Shhhhh! Don't get more people interested in it, I like it being cheap and readily available!

And on further news, I saw this on somebody's facebook page tonight and figured it would be a good place to share it:

Image
"20% accurate as usual, Morty."

Striking down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!
Carpe Noctem- we get more done after 2 am than most people do all day.
User avatar
Morne
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 10631
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Wayne County

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Morne »

Sevens wrote:Red Dot and W231 may have a similar price per pound... if you substitute Promo for Red Dot, the difference in price will be LARGE. Promo is likely to be far easier to find & buy also.

I may have mentioned it elsewhere...
It took me a couple decades-plus (literally) but I have finally learned my lesson with large flake powders in .38 Special: just no good enough reason to bother with them anymore. Small flake? For sure! But the larger flake powders in .38 loads just aren't rock-solid consistent enough for me when I have so many better choices. They don't drop as well from a measure and they don't ignite as uniformly as I demand... ESPECIALLY in light bullet and light-velocity (low pressure) .38 Special loads. So the "Dot" powders, the Promo, the Trail Boss, no more of that for me in .38 Special.
Aside from W-231, what do you suggest for .38 Special?
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Footsoldier in the Conservative Insurrection of the GOP.

Remember, only you can prevent big government!
User avatar
evan price
Forum Janitor
Forum Janitor
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Westfield, Ohio

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by evan price »

Morne wrote:
Sevens wrote:Red Dot and W231 may have a similar price per pound... if you substitute Promo for Red Dot, the difference in price will be LARGE. Promo is likely to be far easier to find & buy also.

I may have mentioned it elsewhere...
It took me a couple decades-plus (literally) but I have finally learned my lesson with large flake powders in .38 Special: just no good enough reason to bother with them anymore. Small flake? For sure! But the larger flake powders in .38 loads just aren't rock-solid consistent enough for me when I have so many better choices. They don't drop as well from a measure and they don't ignite as uniformly as I demand... ESPECIALLY in light bullet and light-velocity (low pressure) .38 Special loads. So the "Dot" powders, the Promo, the Trail Boss, no more of that for me in .38 Special.
Aside from W-231, what do you suggest for .38 Special?
158 LSWC
3.5 grains of Titegroup
Right out of Hodgdon's cowboy loads. I've loaded and shot literally thousands of 'em.
Maybe if I meet you at PITP I can give you a box of them and you can chrono them?
"20% accurate as usual, Morty."

Striking down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!
Carpe Noctem- we get more done after 2 am than most people do all day.
User avatar
Morne
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 10631
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Wayne County

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Morne »

evan price wrote:
Morne wrote:
Sevens wrote:Red Dot and W231 may have a similar price per pound... if you substitute Promo for Red Dot, the difference in price will be LARGE. Promo is likely to be far easier to find & buy also.

I may have mentioned it elsewhere...
It took me a couple decades-plus (literally) but I have finally learned my lesson with large flake powders in .38 Special: just no good enough reason to bother with them anymore. Small flake? For sure! But the larger flake powders in .38 loads just aren't rock-solid consistent enough for me when I have so many better choices. They don't drop as well from a measure and they don't ignite as uniformly as I demand... ESPECIALLY in light bullet and light-velocity (low pressure) .38 Special loads. So the "Dot" powders, the Promo, the Trail Boss, no more of that for me in .38 Special.
Aside from W-231, what do you suggest for .38 Special?
158 LSWC
3.5 grains of Titegroup
Right out of Hodgdon's cowboy loads. I've loaded and shot literally thousands of 'em.
Maybe if I meet you at PITP I can give you a box of them and you can chrono them?
Thanks, I'll be there! Is there something I can bring in exchange?

ETA - I understand Titegroup is usually not recommended to newer reloaders such as myself. Thoughts?
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Footsoldier in the Conservative Insurrection of the GOP.

Remember, only you can prevent big government!
User avatar
Morne
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 10631
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Wayne County

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Morne »

Thoughts on Power Pistol?
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Footsoldier in the Conservative Insurrection of the GOP.

Remember, only you can prevent big government!
User avatar
Sevens
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 7526
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am
Location: Far East Side of CBus

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Sevens »

I am a big fan of classic Bullseye for a terrific .38 Special powder. Titegroup is certainly good as well. W231 is probably excellent, but I have never used it.

I have also never used AA#2 or Ramshot Zip but I would bet both work very well also. I have also had success with a long discontinued Winchester powder (Win 473AA) that is long out of production so... not relevant.

Titegroup should be used with caution--
extremely high energy powder with seemingly small range from min to max. It is also EXTREMELY dense and a double charge can easily fit just about *any* place Titegroup is used. In .38, enough space for a triple charge. Forget "overload", with Titegroup... careless handling can make a BOMB.

Titegroup also runs hotter than any powder I have ever used anywhere for anything. No BS. If you run an array of different loads... the ammo you build with Titegroup will make your handgun warmer to the touch than any other I have found. And where I notice this most is in my revolvers where my natural handling of them means my hand around the cylinder for ejection. Titegroup makes them more difficult to handle.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
User avatar
Sevens
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 7526
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am
Location: Far East Side of CBus

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Sevens »

Power Pistol is also a staple in my cache. It is my go-to powder for .40cal and I have used a heap of it over the years in 10mm. It is too slow for most .38 loads but I will admit (a tick under my breath) that I build a very hot 125/130gr .38 Special load that is a wee over book specifically to run my Coonan with the accessory 10-lb spring. The Coonan, even with it's light spring needs to be pushed to run well, and I run a Power Pistol load to do that.

I think the load data is available to run some lighter bullet .357 Mag loads with Power Pistol but I haven't done that.

Two things about Power Pistol occur to me:
1) it is flashy & seems to give more "blast" than comparable powders. Reality or perhaps just seems so? I don't know.

2) as it is an Alliant powder, expect factory provided published load data from ATK/Alliant to -SUCK- because their published data SUCKS but their e-mail support is quite good.

Oh, I thought of a #3:
Only available in 1lb or 4lb containers... No 8lb. Annoying.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
User avatar
Morne
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 10631
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Wayne County

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Morne »

Bullseye, huh? I might have to check that out... :idea:
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Footsoldier in the Conservative Insurrection of the GOP.

Remember, only you can prevent big government!
User avatar
evan price
Forum Janitor
Forum Janitor
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Westfield, Ohio

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by evan price »

Morne wrote:ETA - I understand Titegroup is usually not recommended to newer reloaders such as myself. Thoughts?
As Sevens said, it is a very high energy powder and in some calibers the allowable spread is barely a half grain from minimum to maximum. Also the tiny loads in some large capacity cases like 38 spl means a double, triple or quadruple charge would fit in the case- my 3.5 grain charge is barely a pinch!
Titegroup has one of the highest concentrations of nitroglycerine in canister powders available to reloaders. That makes it burn hot. It may not be the best powder for some lead loads. However given the huge case capacity and low pressure or 38 spl I have never had a problem with leading or pressure.
Common wisdom is, especially when just starting out, to choose a powder that it is impossible (or at least very unlikely) to double charge in your case to prevent kabooms.
Titegroup requires vigilance to your loading techniques. IT's not in and of itself dangerous. Bullseye, 700-X, Clays, etc. are also high energy powders...just maybe not as high energy as Titegroup.
"20% accurate as usual, Morty."

Striking down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!
Carpe Noctem- we get more done after 2 am than most people do all day.
User avatar
Morne
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 10631
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Wayne County

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Morne »

***CHRONY DATA***

64 Degrees F, 45% Relative Humidity, 29.95" Hg

.45 ACP 230-gr CPRN, CCI-300 LPP, 4.6-gr Red Dot, 1.269-1.275" COAL
AR45 Carbine with 16" barrel
AVERAGE = 864 fps - ES = 95.6

.45 ACP 230-gr CPRN, CCI-300 LPP, 4.9-gr Red Dot, 1.271-1.276" COAL
AR45 Carbine with 16" barrel
AVERAGE = 902 fps - ES = 53.1


All cycled fine.

Once again confirming my preference for the 4.9-gr load. Still need to break out a moonclipped revolver and run my last five (5) rounds of each of these development lots through the chrony.

For reference I ran the S&B 230-gr FMJ through my AR45 Carbine and got AVERAGE = 799 fps - ES = 77. It's nice to see that I can build loads better than S&B.
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Footsoldier in the Conservative Insurrection of the GOP.

Remember, only you can prevent big government!
User avatar
Morne
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 10631
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Wayne County

Re: Red Dot Loads

Post by Morne »

***CHRONY DATA***

40 Degrees F, 80% Relative Humidity, 30.13" Hg

.45 ACP 230-gr CPRN, CCI-300 LPP, 4.6-gr Red Dot, 1.269-1.275" COAL
S&W 625 with 4" barrel
AVERAGE = 703 fps - ES = 52.6

.45 ACP 230-gr CPRN, CCI-300 LPP, 4.9-gr Red Dot, 1.271-1.276" COAL
S&W 625 with 4" barrel
AVERAGE = 757 fps - ES = 74.9

Since EVERYBODY claims that Red Dot and Promo are the SAME BY WEIGHT I decided to load up some identical rounds with Promo and see how they did:

.45 ACP 230-gr CPRN, CCI-300 LPP, 4.6-gr Promo, 1.261-1.269" COAL
S&W 625 with 4" barrel
AVERAGE = 749 fps - ES = 79.8

.45 ACP 230-gr CPRN, CCI-300 LPP, 4.9-gr Promo, 1.261-1.267" COAL
S&W 625 with 4" barrel
AVERAGE = 739 fps - ES = 71.0

This was weird. While the results were close enough to Red Dot (both Promo load averages fell in between the averages from the Red Dot loads) the velocity decreased with the increased powder charge. Not much, mind you, but a little. Could be that if I shot enough rounds it would resolve itself, certainly the ES on these was more than I prefer.
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Footsoldier in the Conservative Insurrection of the GOP.

Remember, only you can prevent big government!
Post Reply