Red Dot Loads

[Morne]

So I finally used up my W-231. I still have Lil' Gun for my magnum loads and .300 BLK. H-322 is my powder for .223.

I noticed that even during the great powder shortage FFF still had Red Dot on the shelf. Some quick internet searching revealed lots of pet loads for .38 Spl, .44 Spl and .45 ACP (the calibers I need a new powder for). Heck, some folks even have Red Dot lads for .30-06!

I intend to continue using the X-Treme copper plated bullets. 158-gr SWC for .38 Spl; 240-gr FP for .44 Spl; 230-gr RN for .45 ACP. I might consider switching to a lower weight load for the .44 Spl like their 200-gr FP.

Thoughts on Red Dot for these applications? Anybody have pet loads?

[BobK]

Just be aware that Red Dot does not meter well in powder measures.

[Sevens]

I second the comment on it's FLAKY nature in powder measures. (pun intended) It does not meter well... which often means that it meters a little better as the charge weight goes up. I'm worried less about metering in larger-volume loads.

With that said, I bought some because I wanted a better .45 powder than I had been using and it seems to be popular for that. To that end, I'm running 230gr Xtreme Pl-RN over 4.7 or 4.8 grains of it to great effect. I've also run Berry's 200gr Pl-FP over 5.2gr of it for a lighter, nicely accurate and clean-hole-punching .45 load.

In .38 Special, I run 4.2 grains of it under 124/125 grain plated and it's nothing to write home about, but it's a good way to get rid of a slew of bullets that I have that aren't very good. I make a lot of it, but I wouldn't pass it off as a "great load."

Also did a 4.2gr charge of it under 124gr Xtreme Pl-RN in 9mm (1.147" COAL) as a test load to "see if it works" and it does work. But because I do have a genuine pet load for 9mm/124 using another powder, I never did make more of the Red Dot load to shake it out and see how good it is. I consider it half-tested as a viable candidate to try more of if I find myself out of Hodgdon Universal, which is my go-to 9mm powder.

[stephen45-70]

i like red dot , you should like it as well in the .44spc and .45 its economical to use and works pretty darn good . i use it in the .45 colt if i happen to be out of unique .

red dot works fairly well in most rifle cases as well for cast/plated bullets so long as you are only looking for low end loads , pressures climb rapidly if you try to push things .

a good thing to keep in the back of your mind when using red dot is ... burn rate is very similar to bullseye

[Morne]

red dot works fairly well in most rifle cases as well for cast/plated bullets so long as you are only looking for low end loads , pressures climb rapidly if you try to push things .

I only load two rifle cartridges right now, .223 & .300 BLK. Both of these are for AR platforms. Red Dot doesn't work for such purposes.

Maybe if I get into loading for bolt or lever action rifles I can tinker in that realm...

[evan price]

I use promo which is "generic" red dot. Good stuff. All my shotshell and some pistol use it.

[buckeye43210]

I use promo which is "generic" red dot. Good stuff. All my shotshell and some pistol use it.

Does promo meter any better than red dot?

[Morne]

Loaded up some .45 ACP this morning. One thing I noticed was that the manuals call for much longer COAL with Red Dot than with W-231. Thus, I had to back out the bullet seating adjustment screw and re-set it for this new Red Dot load length. First round chambered just fine in my XD-45.

These were 4.6-gr of Red Dot with a 230-gr X-Treme CPRN. I also intend to load something closer to 5-gr of Red Dot with the same slug.

Not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot them but whenever it is I will chrono and report back.

[Sevens]

One thing I noticed was that the manuals call for much longer COAL with Red Dot than with W-231.

I disagree a bit with my perception of what you wrote here. Apologies ahead of time if I'm mistaken with your take on this, but here is mine:

Published loads are -NOT- strict recipes, they are test results with very strict reporting and (mostly) concise details. Some load data tells you the barrel length, the actual firearm manufacturer/model, the ambient temperature and the elevation with regards to sea level. For the same reason most people and sources that report chrono outputs also add the temperature and the weather conditions that day.

They include this stuff because it's absolutely relevant -- NOT because you must follow it.

Specifically to the COAL, they are telling you that if your COAL is 1.250", their published max of 5.6 grains of SuperFoo is a max load. They aren't specifically telling you to load to that COAL, they are saying "this is what we did" and they are telling you indirectly that if you use the same bullet but YOU load to 1.235" COAL with 5.6gr SuperFoo, you have gone OVERBOOK on their load because you will be increasing that pressure by reducing the combustion space.

I do not load ANY of my handgun rounds according to published COAL. This is pure folly right from the start if you aren't using EXACTLY the slug they are using, and I'll tell you straight away that if you grab five different 230gr "Hardball" slugs from different sources, prepare to find FIVE different measurements of length and slight variances in shape.

COAL is extremely important and you must take great care to always keep track of it and replicate it if you want to replicate something you've made. But make your life easier now and find a bullet/COAL combo that works very well in every gun you own and prepare yourself for that one NEXT gun where it may or may not care for that COAL. That's a slap in the face, especially when you've been loading a particular round for a good long while.

For my buck, .45 Auto is a decently roomy case with a low-to-medium operating pressure. In that way, it's not .40 S&W or 5.7x28 where a teeny variance has nuclear results. I tend to make my COAL static with the same bullets and adjust the powder charge to compensate. I do not adjust the COAL based on load data.

I really hope that doesn't muddy the waters any, but it's served me very well and it sure as heck wasn't obvious to me for quite a long time.

[Klingon00]

Well said Sevens. It was explained to me by a person I trust that in a case like .45ACP, what matters most is that they cycle in the gun and aren't so long as to not feed in the magazine.

I don't know if this is wrong thinking or not, but I generally like to make them as long as will still cycle reliably and still stay within maximum spec. My thoughts are that there will be less of a jump from the chamber into the rifling that way. It's worked for me so far with plated bullets anyway. Is this ok?

Although, Ive been handling it differently with SWC cast bullets lately and seating them until there is just a fingernail thickness sticking up from the case mouth. COAL is still within spec and I haven't had an issue with it so far. But then again, I don't generally flirt with the upper limits of the powder range anyway.

[Morne]

Sevens,

I understand what you're saying and appreciate the wisdom. Let me give some more detail as to what transpired:

First off, these are bullets without a cannelure. Thus, my prior choice of where to seat them to was very, very arbitrary. Mark one eyeball plus rectal database, if you will. My old W-231 recipe showed a minimum COAL of 1.210" and I seated to 1.245-1.255" so I had a TON of room to spare. They dropped into my chambers and cycled my guns, so I was happy.

The literature for the Red Dot loads showed a minimum COAL of 1.260" and the specification says maximum for this round is 1.275". Thus, my old seating depth was now LESS THAN the test result for the Red Dot recipes. Sure, I built 2 loads and could shoot the lighter one first, inspecting for any pressure signs, then move onto the heavier one. But hey, it's not like my old seating depth was selected for any awesome reason, so why not change it to live on the safe side here?

The new, longer loads with Red Dot chamber fine. I'll test for speed and function soon. If they cycle my guns I'll be tickled.

If I ever get another jug of W-231 I will have to decide whether or not to go back to my old COAL or work the load back up with the longer setting. Frankly, that day is a long way off.

[evan price]

I use promo which is "generic" red dot. Good stuff. All my shotshell and some pistol use it.

Does promo meter any better than red dot?

No, it's the same, just without the red dots. My Lee and MEC gear does OK with it which was unexpectedly a good thing.

[Morne]

I assembled a couple of .38 Special loads with Red Dot, too. Since those bullets have a cannelure I just seated to that like usual.

Can't make any .44 Special loads right now because I am out of .44 slugs.

[Morne]

***CHRONY DATA***

36 Degrees F, 68% Relative Humidity, 30.18" Hg

.45 ACP 230-gr CPRN, CCI-300 LPP, 4.6-gr Red Dot, 1.269-1.275" COAL
Springfield Armory XDS with 3.3" barrel
642.9, 641.4, 638.4, 680.4, 663.5 - AVERAGE = 653.3 fps - ES = 42.0
Springfield Armory XD Tactical with 5.25" barrel
745.1, 744.0, 744.8, 755.1, 731.6 - AVERAGE = 744.1 fps - ES = 23.5

.45 ACP 230-gr CPRN, CCI-300 LPP, 4.9-gr Red Dot, 1.271-1.276" COAL
Springfield Armory XDS with 3.3" barrel
699.8, 714.4, 692.6, 706.1, 688.4 - AVERAGE = 700.3 fps - ES = 26.0
Springfield Armory XD Tactical with 5.25" barrel
728.9, 755.1, 771.2, 778.2, 780.7 - AVERAGE = 762.8 fps - ES = 51.8

All cycled fine in my guns.

The weird thing was that the extreme spread (ES) was better in one gun for one loading and in the other gun for the other loading. Maybe I need to do more shooting of these loads in other guns (I have 10 more rounds of each made) like my moonclipped revolvers and/or .45 AR to see which is better.

...or maybe try somewhere in between these two?

[Sevens]

---or---

Try doing the entire test over again on a different day and recognize how good and also how inherently evil and obnoxious a chronograph can be to use and own.

I do enjoy keeping up on your test results, so please keep 'em coming! Way more enjoyable to read them then it is to chrono my loads!