Your first reloading press?

To learn and introduce new loaders. Tips and tricks from old timers.

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JustaShooter
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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by JustaShooter »

Sevens wrote:Lee Auto Disk and Pro Auto Disk powder measure: to be clear, I own two and have never used either. :P My beef with them is that they are fixed cavity dispensers. I play with -FAR- too many different charge weights and -FAR- too many different powders to settle for a unit with fixed chambers. And yep, some people find a chamber a wee-bit too small, bore the hole out until it's "perfect" and then go with it, but my Lyman 55 handles my powder, so I won't spend any time interviewing or getting 'hands-on' with the Lee measures. Just my view from this load bench. They are extremely popular devices. Much like the Lee Safety Scale, one of those is likely far better than having no measure at all, and the price is right.
True, with the standard setup you can't get loads in between the cavity sizes without modifying the cavities - but if it matters to me (usually doesn't with handgun cartridges) I grab the micrometer disk/charge bar (a $10 upgrade) which is infinitely variable between .28 CC and 1.6 CC.
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Mr. Glock
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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by Mr. Glock »

So,,,,I read both the Hornady book and the Lee book (along with some other starter articles), then I listed out all the equipment I'd need to play around with 357Mag, 44 Mag and 10 mm. Not spending money willy-nilly, it still adds up fairly quickly.

So, I've decided I will acquire a Lee Loader in 223 Rem. I have a Mossy MVP bolt gun in 5.56 that is finicky with ammo (I can shoot 4.5 MOA to just over 1 MOA with different quality loads at 100 yds), and I have a hunch the 5.56 chamber might be playing a roll in that issue. Since the Lee Loader neck-sizes only, and I'm using a bolt gun, I see it as a cheap way to dip my toes in the water. A little powder, a box of primers, some brass and bullets...good to go.

That said, I want to load Hornady 60 gr V-Max bullets to match some factory Hornady ammo that shoots pretty well in the gun. When looking at the Hornady manual, I see Varget ranges from 21.7 gr to 24.9 gr (the last being in the red), while the Lee manual starts Varget at 25.0, and has a do not exceed to 27.0compressed. The velocities are inline, so the high Hornady velocity is similar to the starter Lee load. V-N133 and V-N135 also have a similar split. Anyone care to shed light on that difference, why does the Lee manual start where the Hornady manual stops?
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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by Sevens »

Mr. Glock wrote:So,,,,I read both the Hornady book and the Lee book (along with some other starter articles), then I listed out all the equipment I'd need to play around with 357Mag, 44 Mag and 10 mm. Not spending money willy-nilly, it still adds up fairly quickly.
I'll do my best to not be a downer, but to speak the truth. :lol: It does add up quickly, but don't forget that we're talking hardware. If you use the press, dies and other tools properly and as designed, we're talking about items that may last forever, or at least until you choose to replace them simply because you want to. But if we're talking about budget and money, please understand that this entire ballgame is huge catch-22. Because if the goal is going to be "lowering costs" the absolute best way to do that every single time (and twice on Sundays) is going to be buying components in bulk. Spend, spend, and spend if you wish to ratchet up your "savings." Finding the happy spot is difficult.
So, I've decided I will acquire a Lee Loader in 223 Rem. I have a Mossy MVP bolt gun in 5.56 that is finicky with ammo (I can shoot 4.5 MOA to just over 1 MOA with different quality loads at 100 yds), and I have a hunch the 5.56 chamber might be playing a roll in that issue. Since the Lee Loader neck-sizes only, and I'm using a bolt gun, I see it as a cheap way to dip my toes in the water. A little powder, a box of primers, some brass and bullets...good to go.
I would suggest that you're dipping the end of a toenail and not even getting to toeknuckle hair. You're going to be pounding a little device with a mallet that guys haven't really used (much) since the 1960's. It costs freakishly small money and it's an interesting mental exercise, but it's like writing the forward to a novel with a hammer & chisel on a flat rock tablet. :shock: I suggest you get an actual press and dies now.

Seems to me that if the Lee whack-a-mole actually makes serviceable ammo for you, you'll be HOOKED on handloading and you'll go nuts with your 10-rounds-per-week loading output. And if the Lee whack-a-mole does not make ammo that seems to make you smile, you may either get soured on loading... or you'll buy the press & dies anyway, making the Lee Loader a fruitless waste of money.
That said, I want to load Hornady 60 gr V-Max bullets to match some factory Hornady ammo that shoots pretty well in the gun. When looking at the Hornady manual, I see Varget ranges from 21.7 gr to 24.9 gr (the last being in the red), while the Lee manual starts Varget at 25.0, and has a do not exceed to 27.0compressed. The velocities are inline, so the high Hornady velocity is similar to the starter Lee load. V-N133 and V-N135 also have a similar split. Anyone care to shed light on that difference, why does the Lee manual start where the Hornady manual stops?
Without digging up that data myself (and I don't have either source anyway... :P ) my knee jerk reaction is a few different things, and any/all may apply.

--always keep in mind that published load data is and never has been a "strict recipe" and there's always more than one way to skin a cat. Hornady may have used different brass or a different COAL than what Lee used. And are we certain in both cases that the bullet is definitely the Hornady #22281, 60gr V-Max? Or is it simply one 60gr slug and one other 60gr slug? That matters... a lot.

--also, how do the output results compare? And what were the test conditions? Published load data is basically a test report. They aren't saying "DO THIS!", they are saying "we did this, this is what happened and we believe YOU can safely attempt to do this also using this information"

--other times when we see variations from published sources (we see it all the time...) it can simply be a matter of new testing procedures that may be more accurate than older ones or new occurrences in the testing they had never seen in the past. We see exactly that most often when one published source shows different powder charge weights (when every other part of the load remains the same) over previously published manuals, guides or sources. For exactly this reason, I never throw out published load data, and I very often refer back, back & back even further from the SAME published source to see how the load data they recommend has evolved over time. Do we ever get to find out? Not usually. Sometimes, they'll radically change something AND give a reason, like Alliant did with Blue Dot load data in .357 and .41 Magnum with light bullets. What was perfect fine for publishing (for what, 40 years?) now strictly verboten by the manufacturer/distributor. Go figure!

How do we deal with published loads that seem to cover a wider variance than is comfortable?
We deal with them by sticking to the cardinal rules of handloading -- we start low and we work up, looking for signs of pressure.

We also try and dig up as many different sources as we can muster as if we were soliciting numerous "professional" opinions. And if you've been handloading for a length of time, you've also got a slew of different places to look near your bench. My sources are numerous.

It's never going to be bad form to open a thread and ask for opinions and help with other published sources. As you're new to handloading, I would never expect that you have Hodgdon published guides that are so old they pre-date Varget, but I have them right here, and I don't mind looking up a load. My '88, '91 and '93 Hodgdon guides don't have a single Varget load. :lol: All my newer Hodgdon guides do have Varget... but .223 is capped at a 55gr bullet. :oops: So I will typically runs to Hodgdon's online source and check there.

Hodgdon has a terrific online database of published load data. 8)
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On there, the 60gr V-Max in .223 with Varget runs 25.0gr for a start load and 27.0(c) for a max load.
Hornady's information appears to be quite sedate in comparison... but again, I didn't see exactly what they published. You could always e-mail them and see what they respond with. Sometimes there's a lot to gain by doing that.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by Mr. Glock »

Thanks for your in-depth reply.

To be clear, I don't see the Lee Whack-A-Mole as a real hand loading outfit, more like the free trial size. My limiting factor is not money as much as time. If I only load a few very small batches of ammo and move on (either way), that's $30ish bucks well spent as a trial. My fear is I will find this isn't as much fun/interesting as I thought, then have a bunch of equipment sitting around, so this is a test and learn.
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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by Sevens »

Perhaps. But I look at the Lee whack-a-mole not as a free trial size... but more like looking through the store window at a VHS tape of the handloading procedures running on a fuzzy old TV. :lol:

Handloading is a tremendous hobby all unto itself. It doesn't grab everyone the same way (that's for sure) but I know... for certain... that I'm -FAR- from the only guy that really digs it. 8)

And I don't ever stick a toe in the swimming pool, that always seems awfully silly to me. I'm there, dressed for it, schedule is clear...
I jump in the pool. :twisted:
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by SMMAssociates »

I wont' bore you guys with my whole story, but more or less exactly two years ago, I finally bit the bullet and bought a Dillon 650.

I'd played with single-stage presses about 45 years ago, and actually used a "Lee Loader" back then. Got fairly good at casting .38 bullets, too. But somebody's mom or girlfriend didn't want gunpowder in the basement, and the whole thing died. (I wish I knew where I put that furnace.)

I was pretty sure I wanted a progressive press anyway, and a buddy had the same big Dillon. He talked me into sharing knowledge and spare parts :D....

Seriously expensive.... It comes with one caliber's dies & such, and the automatic case feeder is optional (at about $250!). Turned out that Hornady makes a very similar press for a lot less money.... IAC, the Dillon, while a bit Rube Goldberg in spots, is rock solid. The real problem is that you're between $80 and $200 to swap to another caliber, and I didn't buy the case feeder, so I didn't need a special plate for that, too, when I went to .40S&W.

Conversion also takes a good half hour, although I could shave a little if I added a second primer assembly for small primers - another $80 or so, and you still have to take all kinds of parts apart....

If I had it do do over again, I'd buy two or three cheaper progressive presses :D.... But not Lee.... Another friend has one of their recent progressive versions, and it doesn't excite me. Didn't, come to think of it, before I got the Dillon....

The good news, though, was that I did this on about 12 October 2012, about a month before Zero's re-election and another ammunition shortage. I've had to play a lot of games to get powder and bullets, but that's about the worst of it.

Swapping between large and small primers is a bit of a PITA unless you buy one "setup" for each, but since you have to take a bunch of other parts off the press when changing calibers anyway, you probably can live without it. IMHO, not having the case feeder sucks up time but I'm kinda cheap :D....

DO buy the extra powder measure and die plate, and the little holder they sell for a removed die plate. You save a ton of time when swapping those.

Dillon ships with a round ball-head lever. It seems like most people want the "roller" end (about $40 - makes the lever look like a bicycle foot pedal). Get the "Strong Mount" kit, too. That'll put the press about 8" above the bench top, so it doesn't have to hang over the edge of the bench. It also includes mounting hardware to attach the "Strong Mount" to the press and to the bench. Very handy at 0400 when you realize you didn't have the big bolts "in stock" to put the thing on the bench and get started :D....

I have found their tech support excellent. However, the assembly instructions you need to set the monster up (or change calibers) seem to have been written by somebody who'd built a dozen or so already, and aren't always all that easy to sort out. In a couple cases, I had to figure out how some stuff worked before the assembly instructions made any sense. (In a couple other cases, I had to keep playing with it until it went together.) Once you've done it, though, it sticks.

Finally, to change the shell plate, you have to remove a huge screw from the assembly, while not losing a big ball bearing. To remove the screw, you have to first back off a little bitty screw in the ram that holds the big screw in place. I sorted that out quickly enough, but managed to lose the ball bearing. Time to re-assemble, and "what?".... I finally found it in the bottom of the hole for the big screw. Magnet on a stick time....

I am saving a lot of money per round, but it's going to take a very long time to break even. Don't tell my wife.... :mrgreen:

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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by kentman »

My first press is still my current press, a RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme single stage.

I think it's a great press to learn on, as you don't have all of the moving parts or actions occurring all at once. You can really focus on things like sizing, powder charge and seating depth.

It all boils down to quantity also. If you're loading a smaller batch for matches or weekend shooting, you'll be good. If you want to crank them out by the hundreds, you'll want a turret or progressive. While I would like to be able to do more in my work time, I can't justify buying a progressive, especially when I actually enjoy doing each step separately. I see it as a hobby in itself, not just supporting my shooting hobby.

As far as brands go, I do think there are differences, but I use Lee dies exclusively in my rcbs, and have had great results. You don't have to spend a fortune to get some good quality tools.
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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by BobK »

Mr. Glock wrote:So, I've decided I will acquire a Lee Loader in 223 Rem.
If you want cheap, at least make it a real press that you could still find uses for years from now. This press is about $24. Add a .223 Rem die set for about $28, and the ram prime for $11 (or the Auto Prime for $25 - recommended). Yeah, you are talking $63 instead of $27, but you are using a real press instead of whack-a-mole.

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Don't forget you also need, at minimum, a scale to weight powder charges and a caliper to measure length.
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Re: Your first reloading press?

Post by evan price »

To expand on BobKs thoughts, you can get the Lee reloading hardback book which can be found with a FREE Lee C-frame press included from several vendors.
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EDIT: It appears that was a 40th anniversary special that has been discontinued. Sorry!

I use and recommend MTM Case-Gard boxes, last I heard they were made right here in Ohio, Dayton to be precise. I buy them on sale at Midway and they cost the same or less than the SmartReloader crap.

While I also agree 100% with Lee being a "homeowner" grade press in general (With the RCBS or Dillon being a "Commercial Grade" press) I make one exception and that is the Lee Classic Turret press. It's as strong and sturdy as anything else on the market. It's not a Rock Chucker but it is a steel base and will handle heavy use.

Richard Lee at one point was hearing all the time about how Hornady or RCBS had such large diameter rams and such large size uprights to support the die, and he got sick of it.
There is a point where the diameter of the ram is nothing more than a selling point, you could make it bigger and bigger and it won't help a thing.
As for the size of the uprights, he took a turret press and turned down the vertical uprights in a lathe until they were less than half the diameter and then resized a bunch of large rifle cases with it to prove his point.

I work on a lot of cars, trucks, tractors, etc. I have a lot of hand tools. When I worked as a professional mechanic there were a lot of guys with vast boxes full of Snap-On and Mac tools. They were beautiful and warranteed forever.

I have a few Snap-On and Proto and Mac tools. Stuff I know I need premium type equipment I paid for it. But most of my tools are Craftsman. Lifetime warranty, but I have to take it to Sears to exchange, and they aren't as "nice" as Snap-On.
Heck I even have some Harbor Freight junk tools in my collection.

That's reloading presses.
Lee is your Craftsman tools.
RCBS or Dillon are Snap-On and Mac.

You can get by with a lesser tool. If you need better or have the money for better there's no reason not to buy better.

If it were not for Richard Lee I bet most people would never have gotten into reloading.
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