Primers: some discussion on 'em!

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Sevens
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Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by Sevens »

How big a deal is switching primers? I get it powders have different properties, but do primers?

As an example, I shoot pretty much any range ammo but carry Speer Gold Dots in any caliber. Do you, say, only use a Federal primer across all loads or do you follow the primer recommendation in the loading manual all the time?
It can be a big deal, it doesn't HAVE to be a big deal. Primers have their own little spot amongst the cardinal rules of handloading, at least IMO.

The cardinal rule with primers is merely a sub-rule: when you've worked up ANY load, you can't switch anything without preparing yourself for DIFFERENT results. This is not to say that you must re-work the load, but if you are running some loads at/near/(*gasp* beyond) published maximums, then it's a dangerous and move to just SWITCH one part of the load without doing the necessary steps to re-work that load. And by re-work, I mean LOWER the powder charge, make the change, then use proper methods to work BACK to where you were or wanted to be.

And yes, a primer is a huge (massive!) part of that equation. So for sure, you can buy every different brand on the market and use each/any as you please, however if you build a HOT load and then run out of SuperZoom primers and just stick some MegaBlast in there instead, you can find yourself in a bad place with pressure, where you should not ever be.

My recommendation with primers is to find a brand that you believe you can get and more or less marry yourself to that brand. It's not necessary, but it simplifies things for you and takes the primer swap equation out.

Now, with all that said, I'd also submit that handloading for handgun rounds with max pressures running from 17.5k to 35k (generally speaking) isn't really a place most folks are likely to get in to trouble. Things like warm loads, excessive pressure and small changes giving BIG result swings is far more likely & common in high pressure rifle rounds.

As to which primer to pick? Well, Federal has the long and well known reputation of having the softest cup of all pistol primers. What that means is that if you're ham-fisted with your equipment, a Federal is the first one you'll inadvertently -POP- at the load bench. You'll smear your shorts. :shock: Always wear the safety glasses when priming, no exceptions. But Federal primers are THE primers to use if you have a handgun that exhibits signs of weak or questionable striker/hammer hits. And this doesn't have to mean "broken gun", but many folks who tune revolvers for ultra-slick and extremely light trigger and smooth actions make use of the Federal primer to get reliable ignition.

Me, I'm pretty much married to CCI primers because that's what I started with when the old gun crank at the local shop pushed them across the counter at me. And for fun/sighs, that 1,000 count brick was $9. :P CCI has the opposite reputation -- hardest cup in all of pistol primerdom. So if your gun can reliably make 'em go bang, you're gun is running as it ought to. :wink:
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by Mr. Glock »

That, exactly, answers my question. Thanks.
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by Sevens »

Oops, should have added to my original post...
do you follow the primer recommendation in the loading manual all the time?
One thing that load manuals don't always make absolutely clear or obvious is that everything you read in load data needn't be replicated all the time. What they show you is all the relevant information. They show you everything that comprised their test, and the results they were able to measure.

They show you specifically:
the bullet brand/style/type/weight, and how deeply they seated it. (COAL of the loaded round)
the powder and charge weight they used
the primer brand and type

often times, they also show you:
the firearm or they specify that it was a test receiver
the barrel length
the ambient temperature
...sometimes, they tell you even more.

They include these things because they are relevant to the results they got, not necessarily because they must be followed to the letter.

Most times, a magnum primer's presence is due specifically to the powder used in the load, not necessarily to the particular caliber/chambering. This certainly isn't obvious, it would seem rational that a magnum primer is called for whenever making .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum, but it simply isn't. It's much more about the powder. If you're rolling those rounds with Alliant 2400 powder, a magnum primer typically gains you nothing. If you're making them with H110, Hodgdon is often going to recommend a magnum primer, as this powder has historically been a bit more difficult to ignite consistently.

(actually, some testing has been done that suggest a magnum primer with Alliant 2400 powder is detrimental to the performance of the load... but I don't have the equipment to go nearly that far... :lol: )
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by HancockCountyHAl »

Does anyone know of any data that shows a functional difference between primer brands?
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by Sevens »

One gentleman on another forum I frequent semi-recently contacted ATK with some questions comparing two differently packaged CCI primers -- the small pistol magnum and the small rifle non-magnum and though it was quite unofficial and over the phone, the gal on the other end was able to pull up some specifications and internal chemical makeup of the two differently packaged and marked products that showed they had the same contents.

Some of us have used that as "evidence enough" that the CCI small rifle and CCI small pistol magnum *are* the same primer.

Since that time, I've used the CCI Small Rifle primer for my heavy loads with slow burning powder in .357 Magnum and I've chrono'd the results to good effect, but will admit that I have not gone to the range with the chrono and two loads that are otherwise the same EXCEPT for the primers.

While not entirely related to that, we've also seen many folks that simply switched completely over to CCI small rifle, abandoning small pistol primers completely during the first big drought after the '08 Barackolypse as the small rifle primer was FAR easier to find, to no adverse affects. Some of those guys simply never switched back regardless of small pistol primer availability later on.

Beyond that, I'm also interested in more (and better! :lol: ) evidence of what makes the primers differ from each other.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by Brian D. »

For the most part I've observed that the makers of ammunition and components thereof are pretty tight-lipped. I believe it's their view that the practice keeps their lawsuit profile lower. Let's face it there are people out here shooting and reloading that should take up a less dangerous, technical hobby such as flower arrangement.
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by JustaShooter »

Though not scientific in any way, I came across a set of pictures showing the flames from several different primers: http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; So there are clear differences, but flame temperature and duration seem like they would be just as important, if not more than, the length and intensity of the flame itself, which this test did not attempt to quantify.

Bottom line, as mentioned earlier, primers are a critical component and changing brands or types within a brand can have a noticeable effect on both pressures and accuracy.
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by glocksmith »

Thanks for the good discussion Sevens. I probably don't pay nearly as much attention as I should when considering primers and loads. I've always held the POV that there are only two kinds of primers - standard and magnum - which is an obvious oversimplification. I never load anything even close to maximum loads, and I stick to one brand of primer for all my needs, so I'm not too concerned about running into pressure issues.
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by evan price »

In my experience...which ain't worth much-

There's Federal primers, and there's pretty much everyone elses' primers.

If you work a load with Federals it's a standalone kind of thing.
Work with CCI or Tula/Wolf or Winchesters and they are all good to go swapping primer brands.

Federal still uses the "old" primer formulation so as to be more sensitive. That makes them a bit different.
IMHO as long as you are not running at max or overmax anyway, changing primers won't do much you'd notice.
In terms of Magnum or Nonmagnum, my one conversation with ATK said that the Magnums are hotter sparking. They didn't say they had more compound or different compound, just that the brisiance was higher in magnums. For that reason I would say that switching between magnum and nonmagnum would possibly be a significant enough change to work up a new load if you were up towards max.
In my experience it didn't make much difference.

However, using small rifle pistols in a small pistol application is a combination of a thicker primer cup and a hotter spark.
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by glocksmith »

Evan - Federal is what I use...but I'm not sure I understand what you meant above. Are you saying Federals vary widely between lots? As far as "hotness" goes?
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by evan price »

glocksmith wrote:Evan - Federal is what I use...but I'm not sure I understand what you meant above. Are you saying Federals vary widely between lots? As far as "hotness" goes?
Theres federal primers, and then theres all the rest. Federals are unique.
Also, any primer called "magnum" is hotter than it's non magnum equivalent.
Sorry if thats rambling;i haven't slept much this month.
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Re: Primers: some discussion on 'em!

Post by Dave Shooter »

As an example of Federal difference: had a relatively mild
45 ACP pistol load developed, Win and Rem primers gave essentially same results but Federal gave 40 feet per second slower. This was side by side chrono results, same day, same gun. Doesn't make Federal "bad", just different.
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