A few grains to the wind? Hornady GS-1500 troubles

[robert82]

Gents,

Just started out reloading... Doing 45 auto and following a recipe from one of the books (Lyman) i purchased. The recipe's max is .4 grains lower than the powder manufacture's published max for a FMJ so i feel safe for what thats worth with the recipe. Being my very first session i have been extremely careful at each step to the point that I was using two scales for each charge. A Lee Safety Powder Scale and a Hornady GS-1500. I gave up after the forth round of using both and went to the GS-1500, because i thought i was misreading it you will see why later in my post.

I started out making just 10 rounds with the minimal amount of powder (3.. Utilizing the Lee Powder Measure i was throwing at about 3.5 and 3.6. Utilizing a Hornady Powder Trickler i got it to 3.8. I completed the process for these 10 rounds and went to bed quite happy with the finished product.

Today i went back to do my next 10 rounds, and calibrated the GS-1500 again prior to measuring. I did this yesterday as well. The gs-1500 includes a weight for calibration purposes. So i place the empty pan on the scale and zero out the scale, i do 8 rounds and on the 9th round i put the pan on the scale and it reads -0.9 grains. I remove the pan and put it back on, still -0.9. I turn the scale off, turn it back on and do the calibration process again. I reweigh one of the previous 8 charges and its a 1.1 grains OVER what my intended amount was. So i go through and measure all 8 and they are all over the map. 0.5-1.4 over. Now this was below the max of the powder manufacture but above the recipe's max. Even with that i am not overly pleased presently with the gs-1500. But am including this detail so if i am the reason this is occurring you can all slap me upside my head. So maybe the lee was accurate all along and it was this gs-1500 is floating all over.

So i have stopped. Considering using my bullet puller against my first 10 rounds and buying a new scale. Thoughts? I am really open to ideas and suggestions and welcome any mentoring.

[BobK]

That is exactly why I tried an electronic scale, then quit using it. Back to the old trusty, reliable, repeatable balance beam scale.

Electronic scales are notorious for zero drift.

[JustaShooter]

I would pull the bullets and start over with a scale I could trust (and actually, I'd be inclined to see how messed up the charges were in the batch you are disassembling).

I've never used one of those electronic scales but I've read far too many instances of similar happenings to trust one at this point. I've heard you have to have them in the perfect environment, no fluorescent lights nearby, they have to be warmed up for a long time, and perfectly level, etc. And you still hear about issues. A good balance scale doesn't suffer from such nonsense in my experience. That said, I'm not a fan of the Lee scale either (though I like Lee products in general). I'd put the money into a RCBS 505 or similar and be done with it...

[BobK]

I'd put the money into a RCBS 505 or similar and be done with it...

These are the two best reloading choices in my book:

Redding #2 Master Magnetic Powder Scale 505 Grain Capacity



RCBS Model 502 Magnetic Powder Scale 505 Grain Capacity



Of the two, I think the Redding is the better scale because it is calibrated over where you check the zero line.

See where the beam pointer points at zero in both pictures? The RCBS scale simply says "0", and if your beam settles slightly over or under, you need to adjust the measurement (you move the "counterpoise", or that little slider on the right) to make the beam pointer indicate exactly to the "0" to get a reading.

However, see where the Redding scale is calibrated there, with each little line being 0.1 grains?

Here is how it works for me. Saying I am dropping 3.9 grains of powder (nominal). I'll set the scale so that it shows 3.9 grains. Now, as I am reloading and sampling different cases to weigh the charge, I simply drop the powder in the pan. If the beam pointer settles right on "0", then that is 3.9 grains. If the pointer settles one line below the "0" indicator, then that charge is 3.8 grains. Similarly, if the pointer settles one line above the "0" indicator, then that charge is 4.0 grains. I can weigh 100 different powder charges without ever having to move the scale counterpoise (assuming my powder measurements to do not vary more than +/- 0.5 grains -- which they never do. They vary +/- 0.1 grains, typically).

It is much quicker to measure multiple items of the same average charge without messing with the scale counterpoise for each sample. I have calibrated with Redding scale with known reference weights -- it is consistently accurate.

[robert82]

When i pull these bullets and prior to replacing the charge, should i do anything to the brass?

Thank you for the recommendations. I will be going by Fin Feather and Fur Monday, and Vance Outdoors wednesday and not far from cabelas. So will look at procuring the redding #2.

[stephen45-70]

i hate digital scales .. there i said it .

back when i thought weighing my cast bullets would improve my groups i learned a few tricks to make digital scales more reliable .

1 .. dont use under florescent lighting ...i dont know why but it messes with the scale .
2... scale must be normalized to the room temp your using it in .. if you use the scale in a un heated or cooled room where temps can very over a few hours the scale will rarely be at its best .
3 ... do not move the scale around .. put it in a spot and leave it there ...forever
4.... power .. battery scales suck ... use a power cord and before you use the scale power it up a half hour or so before your ready to use it so internal temps from being on stabilize .

the two biggest things i found to make them more reliable is temp and power

[robert82]

Of the two, I think the Redding is the better scale because it is calibrated over where you check the zero line.

So i went with the redding #2 scale. I used my bullet extractor on my 10 previous finished rounds checking powder as i went and found a range of 0.2 - 1.3 grains. Not exactly cool with that! Thus far i really like the redding 2, and picked it up at Fin Feather and Fur while returning from a trip to Cleveland.

Thank you BobK! Could i interest you in a lightly used digital scale? Only drifts over a full grain.

[Sevens]

Robert, since you've got yourself a better scale, let's see if we can figure out what else is going on and how to (better) attack this project.

First, the powder and the exact tool you're using for powder charges... what are these?

You said the Lee measure, but I'm unsure if you're talking about the Lee "Perfect" powder measure or the auto disk powder measure. With the Lee Perfect, you've got a budget version of a variable volumetric measure. It is a decent tool but like almost every unit, it can be powder sensitive -- it works better with some powders and poorly with others.

The Lee auto disk powder measure is a FIXED chamber measure that has a decent reputation for consistency (again, with some/most powders, not all) but it doesn't have the flexibility to tailor a charge exactly.

I'll get to the root of the issue--
While I understand that you are just starting out, I'd still like to steer you away from any setup or game plan that includes using a powder device AND THEN having to use a trickler to bring the charges to the weight you seek. Simply put, you'll grow old and die by the time you produce enough ammo to even begin to service your shooting budget.

These days, powder has been extremely difficult to find in stock. That stinks for all of us, but it's even worse for a guy who is new at the load bench. If you're working with one of the irrationally difficult to meter powders (Unique, IMR-700X...) then it's going to be quite difficult to build rounds smoothly and at an acceptable pace with the equipment you're using.

Frankly, we're not looking for an "exact" charge in your range so much as we're looking for a consistent powder drop that is within the safe range of load data. And keep in mind that there are MANY sources of load data and some of us have access to many of those sources quickly, we can double, triple check your load data and offer opinions on it, also.

[SMMAssociates]

Gotta +1 Sevens and the "new guy v.s. powder" issue....

I started actually reloading (after a false start in the late 60's and thinking about it since then) about 18 months ago. Four different powders, two calibers, so far....

Each powder change involved working up a new load, and I have yet to do that for the latest powder for .45ACP 'cause I have enough of them loaded for a little while.

Just couldn't find the last one every time I've needed to get more....

(I also had problems finding bullets for a while. That problem seems to have gone away.)

I prefer the magnetic damped mechanical balance, too. My trusty electronic postal scale has been hilarious over the last five years. I just can't see something trying to be as accurate as a powder scale being all that useful at prices I can justify.

And, if you need a trickler to get to the weight of charge you need, unless you're trying to measure to the nearest flake (accuracy people seem to like that), your scale should be able to get you what you need. If not, replace the scale.... Some powders just don't like to measure in an auto-measuring setup, though. I don't have any experience with that, except that so far I haven't managed to hit one of those. The Dillon's been pretty good about that.

I DO have some experience with the tricklers, though .... Decades ago at the former day job, I did color matching. This involved metering teensy amounts of powdered colorants into a mix that was placed in a sort of mixer (at around 300 degrees). When the smoke cleared, so to speak, as I achieved some expertise, and settled on a very accurate balance, getting a microgram or so of powder onto the scale became important. The light came on - I'd seen a trickler in a catalog, I think. "Management" kinda chuckled when they saw 'em, but it worked. (Management was used to me knowing more than a little about guns, at least.)

IAC, it's not rocket science. If you're loading for extreme accuracy, you need to spend a few bucks and a lot of time working on powder, matching cases and projectiles, etc. If you're loading for paper-punching, or even hunting, you should be able to let your press or similar powder measuring hardware do the job hands-off. DO checkweigh every once in a while, though.

Regards,

[robert82]

First, the powder and the exact tool you're using for powder charges... what are these?

Lee Single Stage Breech Lock Press
Lee 45 ACP dies including the taper crimp
Lee Perfect Powder Measure
Hornady Trickler
Lyman Hand Priming Tool
Hornady 230gr FMJ 45177 bullets (recipe had 230gr FMJ of another brand)
Bullseye powder (min 3.8g max 5.3g per my Lyman book) Online shows many folks like 4.6 so I'm starting at 3.8 and working to a max of 4.6
Factory new Remington Brass
Remington Large Pistol Primers (following recipe as close as i can)
OAL of 1.275 per recipe
Hornady Bullet Puller
Redding #2 scale

Appreciate any and all advise to keep all 10 little piggies from biting the farm.

[BobK]

Bullseye powder

This powder should meter like water.

However, for .45 ACP or other pistol calibers, I'd personally prefer to use the Lee Pro Auto Disk powder measure. The Lee Perfect Powder measure is generally used for much heavier charges, most often with rifle loads.