Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Sevens » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:33 pm

As a wheelgundood, you likely already know that you are less likely to have a FTF if you are cocking & firing single action with a revolver... than if you were firing double action. Obviously... you don't want FTF's no matter how you shoot. But my point is the same-- if you were firing single action through chrono (more likely, since it's chrono work?) and you were getting FTF's, your light strike issue is a bit worse than if you were firing double action.

Wolff does not offer any "extra power" hammer springs on their site. That frustrates me to no end, because Wolff does more gun springs than any outfit on this planet. They only offer reduced powder hammer springs. Makes very little sense to me.

Also, bummed that you didn't make it in to town for our last HUG meeting. I had that jug of Lil'Gun for you.
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Morne » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:10 pm

Yeah, sorry I couldn't make the HUG meeting. Maybe another time!

One of the failures to ignite was single-action, the other double-action. Both ignited the second time with double-action trigger pulls.

You're right, I like to do chrono work single-action at least for the first couple of rounds to be SURE I know where the slugs are going. But once I know I'm not going to ding a wire I go ahead and revert to my normal double-action trigger pull that we wheelgundoods prefer to train with most of the time.

I also burned up a box of my .38 Special loads (and a box of factory, too, had a fixed gun that needed re-proven). I even shot half a box of .44 Magnum (factory) through my titanium 4" wheelgun. My resetting steel plate target doesn't always reset, though, when getting SLAMMED by those bad boys! :P :lol: :shock: 8) :mrgreen:

Your hand NOTICES when you've shot 25 .44 Maggies through a lightweight gun... :twisted:
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Morne » Mon May 12, 2014 12:04 pm

BobK wrote:I'd build some 17.0, 18.0, 19.0, 19.5, 20.5 21.0, and 21.5.

Chrono'ing them would give a nice curve to dial in exactly.

Of course, I'm a nerd.

I built some 17.0, 18.1 and 19.0 loads. Will chrono (between thunderstorms) and report back here.
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Morne » Thu May 15, 2014 8:20 am

***CHRONY DATA***

73 Degrees F, 72% Relative Humidity, 1019.1 mB

.44 Magnum 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-350 LPP(m), 17.0-gr Lil' Gun, 1.565-1.576" COAL
Taurus Tracker 44 4" ported barrel
965.0, 958.2, 962.1, 968.1, 962.6 - AVERAGE = 963.2 fps

.44 Magnum 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-350 LPP(m), 18.1-gr Lil' Gun, 1.569-1.573" COAL
Taurus Tracker 44 4" ported barrel
1018, 1023, 1032, 1004, 1020 - AVERAGE = 1019 fps

.44 Magnum 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-350 LPP(m), 19.0-gr Lil' Gun, 1.567-1.577" COAL
Taurus Tracker 44 4" ported barrel
1023, 1116, 1093, 1098, 1084 - AVERAGE = 1083 fps

Note that these were shot through a shorter barrel than my previous testing, hence the lower velocity.

It looks like adding a grain of Lil' Gun adds about 50-65 fps at each increment.

Any of these would make decent practice loads. My next step is to settle on a factory SD load and see which behaves the closest to it I suppose. Accuracy was acceptable on my resetting steel plate target.
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Morne » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:06 pm

***CHRONY DATA***

71 Degrees F, 49% Relative Humidity, 1019.8 mB


.357 Magnum 158-gr X-Treme copper plated SWC, CCI-500 SPP, 16.0-gr Lil' Gun, 1.582-1.599" COAL
Taurus Model 66 6" barrel
1309, 1325, 1289, 1308, 1310, 1286, 1279 - AVERAGE = 1301 fps

All of these fired just fine the first time, unlike the earlier version with the CCI-41 SRP. However, notice that the regular (non-magnum) SPP used this time resulted in about 86 fewer FPS velocity for the exact same powder load (temperature virtually identical). Perhaps I should procure some magnum SPPs and repeat this exercise? :idea:
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby BobK » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:11 pm

Morne wrote:notice that the regular (non-magnum) SPP used this time resulted in about 86 fewer FPS velocity for the exact same powder load (temperature virtually identical). Perhaps I should procure some magnum SPPs and repeat this exercise? :idea:

The 86 fps isn't free. Obviously, the hotter flash from magnum SPP create higher pressures that translate to greater velocity. You'd get the same higher pressure effect if you simply increased the powder charge. Whether the increased pressure is from the primer or the powder, you still need to stay within safe pressure limits.
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Sevens » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:20 am

When it comes to CCI brand primers...

the small pistol magnum
and the
small rifle non-magnum
...are the same primer. I use CCI-small rifle for .357 Magnum loads with slow powder.

However...
The CCI-400 small rifle primer is (obviously) not the same primer as the 41.
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby ScottyPotty » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:01 pm

Anyone know where to find some lilgun or H110. I went 3 places tonight and no luck.
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Sevens » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:11 pm

For anyone that is to the point of desperation and searching for those two powders, my best advice would be:

consider how badly you need them, and then wrap your head around the possibility of trying either (or both) of Accurate#9 or Alliant Power Pro 300-MP.

I prefer Accurate#9 and for reasons mentioned elsewhere, I absolutely refuse to use Hodgdon Lil'Gun entirely. I also have never bought H110 and my plan is to stick with that self-imposed embargo.

Accurate#9 meters extremely well, it works like gangbusters in all magnum handgun loads I've tried it in and (TRUTH!) it is the only handgun powder that I have not seen completely out of stock throughout this entire multi-year funk we're in. Alliant has fine published data available for download via .pdf and if someone starts a new thread, I have a few different published sources where I can help to kick in some published load data.

Alliant Power Pro 300-MP is another option if you find it. It's been my experience that few folks even know this powder exists, so it's not NEARLY seen the demand that H110 has, so I see it on shelves occasionally. The biggest strike against this powder is that published data sources are extremely few & far between and Alliant's published data for it is just like all of Alliant's current published data: it SUCKS, it's not comprehensive and the velocity results seem like a blatant, obnoxious LIE, worse than I've ever seen. :P

However, it's still a magnum-class powder that right in line with H110 and one long-published gun magazine writer has even claimed that it -IS- rebranded H110, but I have not found any secondary source to confirm that, and even got a mysterious "no reply at all" when I e-mailed the techs at ATK.

That reminds that I need to bug them again and get some sort of answer on that...

*NOTE*
If you're chasing the subject powders for use in some SBR like .300 Blackout, I will admit for sure that I have NO EXPERIENCE in their use outside of handgun rounds and I have no idea whatsoever if others are using them. :?:
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby ScottyPotty » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:18 pm

Thanks for the help. Its for a marlin 44 mag lever gun. I've had it for a few years now, but have not worked up any magnum loads yet. Now with the new hunting regulations, I want to start.

*edit* I might have scored a can of h110 from a guy at work. Fingers crossed...

**edit** just did the deal. Got a pound of gold..er h110
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Morne » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:12 pm

Sevens wrote:*NOTE*
If you're chasing the subject powders for use in some SBR like .300 Blackout, I will admit for sure that I have NO EXPERIENCE in their use outside of handgun rounds and I have no idea whatsoever if others are using them. :?:

That's the reason I am stubbornly sticking to Lil' Gun. I have an AR pistol in .300 AAC Blackout that is just too much fun for how expensive ammo can be.
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby stephen45-70 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:18 am

I use w296/h110 .. yes they are the same powder ... unless it is older stock .
One thing i like to mention about it is .. reduced loads = kaboom

Now with that out of the way .. if you want top end loads it is a good choice
Just do not ignore the do not reduce loads warnings
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Morne » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:30 am

Finally got around to shooting some of these through my 6.5" barrel revolver:

Meteorological Data: 32 F, 79% RH, 30.35" Hg

***CHRONY DATA***

.44 Magnum 240-gr CPFP, CCI-350LPP(m), Lil' Gun Powder, 1.565-1.587" COAL
Taurus 44 with 6.5" barrel five (5) shot strings each
17.0-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1066 fps - ES = 135.0
18.1-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1112 fps - ES = 70.0
19.0-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1195 fps - ES = 69.0
19.6-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1287 fps - ES = 36.0

The above data is very interesting to me. That 17.0-gr load had the tightest ES in my 4" but the loosest in my 6.5" gun. That leads me to believe that ES is determined as much by the gun as by the cartridge. More on that in another thread.

That 19.6-gr load was REALLY MOVING for a 240-gr bullet! That thing was slightly faster than my fastest 200-gr load (with SR-4756 powder and non-magnum primer) to date. Here's how the primers look:
Image

Oddly, Hodgdon's online data center shows 22.5/24.5-gr Lil' Gun for jacketed 240-gr bullets. I don't know that I am that brave, though. :shock: Honestly, I think this is all plenty hot enough. I can certainly use these for practice rounds. This 6.5" barrel revolver is one of my hunting guns and bagged me a doe this year (using factory ammo 300-gr Hornady XTP).
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Morne » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:02 pm

Meteorological Data: 57 F, 69% RH, 29.81" Hg

***CHRONY DATA***

.44 Magnum 240-gr CPFP, CCI-350LPP(m), Lil' Gun Powder, 1.575-1.587" COAL
Taurus Tracker with 4" ported barrel five (5) shot strings each
19.6-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1138 fps - ES = 47.0

I find it interesting that this load loses 149 fps on average going from the 6.5" to the 4" (ported) barrel revolver. Clearly, that slow burning Lil' Gun powder is still doing work way out there.

Needless to say, this was a bit punishing out of the medium-framed Taurus Tracker. While the ES was fairly tight I think the 18.1-gr recipe will remain my usual "practice load" for .44 Magnum. I hunt with factory ammo anyway so there's no need to try and wring every last ounce of performance out of this puppy. :idea:
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Re: Magnum load advice - Lil Gun powder 357 & 44

Postby Sevens » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:44 pm

Oddly, Hodgdon's online data center shows 22.5/24.5-gr Lil' Gun for jacketed 240-gr bullets. I don't know that I am that brave, though. :shock: Honestly, I think this is all plenty hot enough.

I chose this snippet to quote and reply as it's relevant to the point I was trying to make on your thread of .357 Mag/125gr loads to 1,500 fps.

When you bring up being "brave"... If you are simply saying that you don't want/need the battering of your hands with recoil, that's one thing. However, if the concern was more about "dangers of handloading & hot loads" then this helps to illustrate my point well.

Taking Lil'Gun to absolute published max is TOTALLY SAFER IN EVERY WAY than taking W231 or AA#5 to absolute published max. And it will continue this way along the relative burn rate of powders.

Using the absolute slowest burning powder that will work is always going to be safer at top end than a fast burner. The faster the burn rate, the EARLIER it reaches peak pressure and the less powder required.

Another way to imagine this visually:
Don't ever actually do this, EVER:
Pick up a primed .44 brass and dip it through a dish of H110 (or Lil'Gun) so that you make a totally full but uncompressed powder charge and cap it with a jacketed 240. Now put that round in a Redhawk and discharge it -- what you made is likely over published max and over SAAMI spec and it is reckless and stupid and the Redhawk won't notice anything out of the ordinary.

Now, repeat the dumb act with TITEGROUP. And when you pull the trigger you might need an ambulance and absolutely no longer own a functioning Redhawk. It is gone and some of it may have blood on it.

I can't accurately describe how my confidence in load development jumped by leaps and bounds when I eventually learned the hows and whys of powder selection. I followed the SAME path that seemingly every new handloader follows... "I wanna buy one or two powders only and use them for EVERYTHING and look, Hodgdon has data for Titegroup in .44 Mag and that means I'm only buying Titegroup for these five calibers!"

That is -bad- thinking and it seems to never be spelled out in manuals.

Of all the things I have learned in almost three decades of this, THIS may be the most valuable and the one I hold closest to my heart.

In handguns especially, powder is sooooo cheap compared to every other part of the handloading hobby. Diversify with powders and if you have specific velocity goals, you *must* use the proper powders. If you don't, you not only won't get the results you seek, you will quite specifically make it MORE dangerous.

Apologies as this is off-topic in this thread, but it fits well in the other one! ;)
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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