Lack of load data for copper plated bullets? ETA data pg4-6

[Morne]

...and what starting load for the .45 ACP? I'm thinking 5.0-gr W-231 to push a 230-gr copper plated RN.

EDITED TO ADD:

Went ahead and loaded up five (5) .45 ACP cartridges. Decided to use 5.1-gr W-231 because of the lower velocities seen in my earlier data. How's the crimp look here:

[Sevens]

I have the luxury of being able to load of 5 rounds and step out the back door and shoot over the chrono into a backstop and then go back inside and load up 5 more at a different charge.

I don't need to tell you, but that, brother, is the handloader's dream.
For me, load development takes far longer because I'm 55 miles between "shots fired."

I didn't like that spread, or super slow speed, either. Question is, what is the next step? 4.3 & 4.6? 4.3 then 0.1 at a time? Straight to 5.0?

I like to look at it in by the size of the total charge when I'm deciding on "steps." If it's some tiny little cartridge like .380 or maybe a .32 Auto or some silliness, a tenth or two tenths is a step I'm comfortable with.

When the charge weight is around 5 grains or so, I will use 0.3 or 0.4 steps.
Keep in mind that if you are building 5.0gr loads and you go ahead and make your "NEW" test load at 5.1, it's barely different. Heck, though you may be hand-weighing charges here in the very early going, it's almost a sure bet that you'll be metering them eventually and almost no setup (outside the electronic dispenser) can ensure that you aren't already varying +/- a tenth in the normal course of metering. So using a 0.1 grain step almost ensures that you won't see -ANY- difference.

When I get to some of the slower burning powders in larger magnum cases and I'm running 12 - 15 - 18 grains of powder or more, my steps get larger as well. half grain, maybe 0.6 or 0.7 steps. Something - so that you actually see (and/or "feel") a difference.

Where do I tend to end up?
Often, I will build three different "loads" in one caliber with a new bullet. The top-most load of the three will be at max* or a tenth-grain under max.
The next load, since we're talking about 4.0-5.0gr loads here, would be 0.3 under that "max", and the next load would be 0.6 under that same max.
At the range, I shoot the lightest ones first. I hope/expect to get full functioning of the pistol if it's a self-loader, and I look to see that I don't have black/sooty cartridge cases. If all is well, I shoot the middle ones, then I shoot the full ones.

All should work.
All should be safe.
I tend to pick the middle of the three loads, typically, if I don't have reasons otherwise.
And after shooting a hundred or two hundred of these, when I have a firm feel for them, I can adjust up or down by 0.3 and I know full well that loads in either direction have already been tested as "safe."

It's no stretch to suggest that I will often take part of a whole shooting season to really "dial-in" a load, so that I know the load is:
--safe
--fully functional
--accurate (enough?)
--gives me what I need and/or expect
--runs 100% in any/every/all guns I can find to run them through
...That process takes me quite a while, and sometimes hundreds of rounds, but let me tell you. When you get there, when you're sure that it's everything you want it to be... and you have a good supply (or supply line!) of the bullets and that powder...
Well, it's a very, very good day. That's a pet load. It's your load and you end up at the point where you know exactly what you have when you have a box of those in your hand. Your shooting skill gets an injection of mojo. The confidence in that particular ammo will improve your shooting. (at least... it does to mine.)

I gotta say, I don't know how anybody reloads without a chrony. The feedback is hugely important to me.

I disagree fully, and with some passion.
A chronograph to me has been a learning tool and a toy. It's a serious time-sucker and it also has sent me down silly tangents chasing things that do not really matter. (to me)
I suppose it is what you make of it. But it is so very much not a necessary tool. I made tens of thousands of fantastic rounds of ammo over two decades-plus without my "hundred dollar bullet magnet." I was never able to attach velocity numbers to my loads the way that I can now, but it's absolutely not necessary to me.

One thing you might consider doing later down the road (if you are the type who might fall in to the trap of learning "too much!" from that chrono) is to build the SAME loads that you chrono'd yesterday (go with the much safer .44 loads, please!) and chrono them on a day this summer when it's 40 degrees warmer out. Or send them out of a different gun. Or build the same loads and radically alter your roll crimp. Chrono all those and compare the results and then tell me how important the bullet magnet is to this process?

For sure, there's many fantastic reasons to use the chrono, I'm not suggesting it is worthless. But if someone will suggest that it's necessary, I'd like for them to add a caveat of "for their needs" because I am dead sure certain that these clocks aren't necessary for decent, SAFE, enjoyable, productive hobbyist handloading.


*(let us not forget that "MAX" is merely one published source's "max" and it's not a static number. You get an idea in your own mind where "max" is and you work in an area under that until you find a reason (and you have the experience) to experiment beyond it.)

[Sevens]

I won't comment on the load data because I don't have/use W231. (it's a fine powder, I just don't use it)

To the crimp, hard to tell from pictures. But being a semi-auto round, you should be employing a "taper crimp" which is somewhat of a misnomer. It's not "CRIMPING!" the bullet per se, it's purpose is to remove the belling of the case mouth from the earlier flaring step. .45 Auto was designed to head space on the case mouth (no matter if you're the odd duck that spits 'em from a wheel gun) and a taper crimp allows that to happen properly. The bullet is not held in place by any crimp, it's held there by proper case mouth tension. (bullet pull)

For great .45, I use a semi-auto pistol's barrel as a case gauge. I want loaded rounds to drop in freely to the proper (full) depth of the chamber, and then I want them to drop back out freely under their own weight.

If you impart too much "taper crimp", all of that will get foobed up.

If all of your .45 is going to be moon-clipped and spit from revolvers, you may never notice how good or bad your handloaded rounds have turned out. Which is nice for you, but might ruin your day if you later add a .45cal semi-auto to your stable.

[Morne]

Yeah, I am only reloading for wheel guns. I have semis, but for now they get factory stuff only.

Maybe if I add a lever gun to the stable some day I'll have more worries.

[Sevens]

Yeah, I'm happy with the 44 mag load for just messing around with the big gun. But since my goal is 1100 fps I think 9 grains might be close to that. No need for the 8.5 grain step?

Whoops! I missed this bit.

Remember that you are working with an extremely fast burning powder in a magnum load.
You are working with a powder that does "work" in this application, but it is out of it's comfortable and normal range. For .44 Mag with 240gr bullet and 1100 FPS, you are talking a full magnum load in a large volume case. This is a place where slower burning powders are in THEIR comfort zone, and fast burning powders gets really stupid, really quickly, with very little warning. Pressure increases at an increasing rate while velocity inches only a bit higher.

This is precisely no place to jump up quickly.
I would not jump a full grain here when using a fast burning powder on the magnum end of a load.

My advice here isn't so much specific to precisely the load in question, it's much more "generally" a statement about fast burning powders being used (nearly) out of their best range in large volume magnum loads. This while arena was something that took me quite some time to get on board with. I never really "got it" until a handful of years ago when I finally started discussing handloading in internet forums.

Could you go from 8.0 grains to 9.0 grains of W231, especially when the chrono results give you a velocity at/under 900 FPS and the published data gives a max load that's higher?
Yes! Almost surely yes. But this is a BAD habit to get in to and a fine example of situation to be well aware of avoiding.

It's a fine teaching moment.

[Morne]

Ok, so next step for the .44 is 8.5 then 9.0 - chrony and re-assess.

By the way, I shoot in my backyard, too. So be jealous...

[mreising]

I have the luxury of being able to load of 5 rounds and step out the back door and shoot over the chrono into a backstop and then go back inside and load up 5 more at a different charge.

I don't need to tell you, but that, brother, is the handloader's dream.
For me, load development takes far longer because I'm 55 miles between "shots fired."

I have to note that I don't have a "range", just a bullet trap behind the chrono and neighbors that don't mind an occasional handful of shots fired. All of my immediate neighbors' houses have been foreclosed. Even though it's s subdivision, I'm in the township so it is legal and as I said, I spoke with the neighbors that are here. One of the foreclosed places just sold about 2 weeks ago and I suppose I should go talk to them before any extensive testing.

[Morne]

***CHRONY DATA***

54 Degrees F, 45% Relative Humidity, 29.67 Inches Hg

.45 ACP 230-gr X-Treme copper plated RN, CCI-300 LPP, 5.1-gr W-231, 1.256-1.264" COAL
S&W Model 625 4" barrel
643.3, 705.5, 677.8, 718.8, 681.8 - AVERAGE = 685.4 fps

These felt nice enough, but I would like a bit more velocity (and consistency). I'm thinking the next steps on this cartridge will be 5.3 and 5.5 grains of W-231 since multiple sources show 5.7 as maximum. I'm not trying to make a max load and don't want to load there. Honestly these were probably good enough as is, but if I can get a bit closer to factory load parameters I'd prefer that.

One thing - looking back at my picture of the loaded cartridges I like where I seated these. However, the books show minimum OAL of 1.210" or so. Thus, I had a LOT of extra room but was still comfortably under the maximum length of 1.275". Should I try seating the bullet deeper?

[BobK]

Should I try seating the bullet deeper?

They look fine.

Do they pass the "plunk test"? If you field strip and hold the barrel, will a round fall in with a "plunk"?

[Morne]

Should I try seating the bullet deeper?

They look fine.

Do they pass the "plunk test"? If you field strip and hold the barrel, will a round fall in with a "plunk"?

Moonclipped wheel gun, brah. They fit fine.

Next round of loading this cartridge I'll yank a 1911 barrel and drop them in for fit.

[stephen45-70]

moon clipped wheel gun ... ok what is it .. im a wheel gun guy , ruger ? smith ? colt ?
lol ... the crimp looks good to me , if you do use these in an pistol you can get away with a very gentle roll crimp , very gentle is the key word , if you dont have a taper crimp die .

cant argue with anything sevins has said .. darn good advice and such .

i realy agree with his philosophy on a chrono ... i have very much the same attitude .
but they are useful and knowing your velocities is nice ... much more useful when you start swimming in uncharted waters

[Morne]

moon clipped wheel gun ... ok what is it .. im a wheel gun guy , ruger ? smith ? colt ?
lol ... the crimp looks good to me , if you do use these in an pistol you can get away with a very gentle roll crimp , very gentle is the key word , if you dont have a taper crimp die .

cant argue with anything sevins has said .. darn good advice and such .

i realy agree with his philosophy on a chrono ... i have very much the same attitude .
but they are useful and knowing your velocities is nice ... much more useful when you start swimming in uncharted waters

Smith 625

[evan price]

Yeah, I'm happy with the 44 mag load for just messing around with the big gun. But since my goal is 1100 fps I think 9 grains might be close to that. No need for the 8.5 grain step?

Whoops! I missed this bit.

Remember that you are working with an extremely fast burning powder in a magnum load.
You are working with a powder that does "work" in this application, but it is out of it's comfortable and normal range. For .44 Mag with 240gr bullet and 1100 FPS, you are talking a full magnum load in a large volume case. This is a place where slower burning powders are in THEIR comfort zone, and fast burning powders gets really stupid, really quickly, with very little warning. Pressure increases at an increasing rate while velocity inches only a bit higher.

This is precisely no place to jump up quickly.

My advice here isn't so much specific to precisely the load in question, it's much more "generally" a statement about fast burning powders being used (nearly) out of their best range in large volume magnum loads. This while arena was something that took me quite some time to get on board with. I never really "got it" until a handful of years ago when I finally started discussing handloading in internet forums.

I would not jump a full grain here when using a fast burning powder on the magnum end of a load.
Could you go from 8.0 grains to 9.0 grains of W231, especially when the chrono results give you a velocity at/under 900 FPS and the published data gives a max load that's higher?
Yes! Almost surely yes. But this is a BAD habit to get in to and a fine example of situation to be well aware of avoiding.

It's a fine teaching moment.

I get what you are saying, and you are correct...bt in my experience with W231, it tends to not really show a radical increase in velocity (all things being equal in terms of projectile & crimp etc) in small steps. That far below max, I bet a 0.5 grain increase in a large capacity case like 44 mag will give a minimal velocity increase.

Now if we were talking Titegroup I would treat it like nitroglycerine (which it is...roughly 1/3!!!)

[Morne]

Loaded up some more rounds, with any luck I'll have more data later on today. Still, wanted to address a few visual issues previously identified:

Here is the .44 Magnum of my next batch, seated about 0.010" deeper:


Here is a comparison of one of my .45 ACP loads and a factory round in my Para P-14/45 barrel:


I don't remember which picture is which and frankly I couldn't tell any difference in person, either. "Plunk test" passed!

[Morne]

***CHRONY DATA***

20 Degrees F, 62% Relative Humidity, 30.27 Inches Hg


.38 Special 158-gr X-Treme copper plated SWC, CCI-500 SPP, 4.3-gr W-231, 1.468-1.476" COAL
Taurus Model 66 6" barrel
650.8, 692.9, 694.3, 668.1, 635.9 - AVERAGE = 668.4 fps

.38 Special 158-gr X-Treme copper plated SWC, CCI-500 SPP, 4.6-gr W-231, 1.466-1.476" COAL
Taurus Model 66 6" barrel
677.5, 692.7, 705.4, 704.1, 692.8 - AVERAGE = 694.5 fps

.45 ACP 230-gr X-Treme copper plated RN, CCI-300 LPP, 5.4-gr W-231, 1.256-1.267" COAL
S&W Model 625 4" barrel
672.7, 668.5, 663.6, 691.1, 725.1 - AVERAGE = 684.2 fps

.45 ACP 230-gr X-Treme copper plated RN, CCI-300 LPP, 5.6-gr W-231, 1.259-1.265" COAL
S&W Model 625 4" barrel
692.7, 708.5, 682.7, 701.9, 711.5 - AVERAGE = 699.5 fps

.44 Magnum 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 8.5-gr W-231, 1.574-1.578" COAL
Taurus Model 44 6.5" ported barrel
928.7, 927.9, 895.7, 955.9, 964.0 - AVERAGE = 934.4 fps

.44 Magnum 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 9.0-gr W-231, 1.572-1.580" COAL
Taurus Model 44 6.5" ported barrel
953.7, 1011, 1001, 1004 - AVERAGE = 992.4 fps

I took pictures of all the targets, but this was my best (.38 special with the 4.6-gr w-231 load):


The .44 Magnum loads were enough fun to put a smile on my face, for sure!

Maybe I should go shopping for some H-110 and try making some real magnum loads next.