Lack of load data for copper plated bullets? ETA data pg4-6

[Morne]

So as I am getting ready to charge my first .38 Special cases I have been digging through my multiple new loading manuals. I have these 158-gr SWC copper plated bullets from X-Treme Bullets:
http://www.xtremebullets.com/38-158-SWC ... -b0500.htm

But the manuals don't show data for a copper-plated 158-gr round. Even Hodgdon's online resource shows only two W-231 loads for 158-gr, one for HDY-XTP and one for LSWC. I presume that the HDY-XTP line is the correct one to use? Just a little weird that the max load for the lead is under the starting load for the HDY-XTP.

Not that I am really worried about it. After all, this is a standard pressure .38 Special loading, not even +P. I'll be firing these in a gun rated for .357 Magnum. I want to start with good habits as far as load development goes.

Thinking about it logically I can see why lead loads should use less powder. After all, the bullet base should deform a bit more and make a tighter seal with the bore, so you want less burning behind it for the same pressure - right?

Before anyone recommends it, I am NOT going to switch to lighter bullets like 125, 110 or 90 grain. I prefer the heavier bullets in almost all of my cartridges. I carry only 158-gr factory SD loads in my .357 Magnums. I want to practice with the same bullet weight. Ultimately I will make .357 Magnum loads with these same X-Treme 158-gr SWC copper plated bullets for realistic practice rounds at less cost (to say nothing of how hard it is to find factory .357 Magnum ammo these days).

[JustaShooter]

In general, you would use load data for hard cast bullets when using plated because the plating is thin enough it doesn't alter the characteristics of the lead much. Here's an excerpt from Berry's Bullets website:

We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated bullet that we list a higher max velocity for like the 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP that can be shot to 1500fps in open class guns like a .38 Super. Keep in mind that since our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data.

[mreising]

Rainier also recommends using lead bullet data. You will be fine, especially if you are at the low range. Work your way up and watch for pressure signs.

[mreising]

FYI, depending on the powder you are using, you may find two different 158 gr. LSWC loadings. One will be listed as MEI LSWC, which is a Meister Bullet. They run a little harder than some other cast lead bullets. For example, I believe the MEI 158 gr LSWC has a Brinell Hardness of 14-15 while cast lead from Missouri Bullet company are around 12 for 38 spl. and 15-18 (I think) for the same bullet cast for use in in 357; they use a different alloy for different purpose bullets. If you use Vance cast bullets, the last time I checked, the 158 gr. looked to be about 18 (based in using my Lee Hardness Tester), which is kind of hard for low pressure rounds and can lead to lead fouling. The point I'm leading up to is that you will find variation in cast lead bullets depending in the alloy and whether they air cooled or were water quenched after casting, so the load data is probably a little conservative to account for variability. Also, lead bullet data in the Hornady manual is for their bullets, which are soft lead, swaged bullets).

[Sevens]

I don't have the time today to give this topic the full blast that I typically would. I'll send a PM.

Plated bullets are unlikely to ever have their own load data because each different product offering varies widely from one company to the next. It wouldn't be a good idea for any powder distributor to test a bunch of Xtreme bullets and then mark up the results as published data for plated bullets.

I've been through tens of thousands of Berry's bullets in all sizes and I've found their plating to be decent, but we are still talking razor thin. This is not a jacket. Crush one in a vise or over-crimp and then pull down a round and you'll see how thin the plating is. I'm still a tremendous fan of Berry's bullets, and I used to think they were the finest plated bullet in the market... Until Xtreme came around and I tried them. The Berry's "thick plate" (of which there are only a few sizes yet available) is likely to be like the Xtreme bullet in the thickness of the plating, but this is just my guess.

Ranier and Frontier bullets are a definite step under Berry's, IMO. But Xtreme beats them all.

Bottom line for me, and I'm out of time to talk more, is that if you want to run plated, run quality plated (Berry's, Berry's thick plate, or Xtreme) and then, when you do, run them like jacketed. If you come anywhere near running them like lead, you will have problems. They offer FAR more resistance in a gun barrel than any lead bullet of the same size ever possibly could. Do not baby a decent plated bullet or it could ruin your day.

[Morne]

Glad I asked!

Looking at the Hodgon online resource for 158-gr with W-231 gives the following:

.38 Special = LSWC 3.1-3.7; HDY-XTP 3.8-4.3
.357 Magnum = LSWC 3.4-5.0; HDY-XTP 6.2-6.9

So, if I start out with mid-range jacketed values for .38 Special, say 4.0 grains of W-231, I'll get a low-end .357 Magnum lead result at worst. No matter which way the bullet decides to behave, like lead or like jacketed (or somewhere in between) I should be safe (as in no stopping in the barrel).

I have a new chronograph on its way to my house so I can get actual velocity data on how these things behave.

Presuming it reads fairly low velocity, I'll work it up to as much as 5.0 grains of W-231 for a target load. That is in excess of the jacketed data for .38 Special but still fairly light for the .357 Magnum category. When I decide to try for real full-house .357 Magnum loads I'll probably use H110 (and in .357 Magnum cases, too, just to be safe).

Another reason to LOVE the versatility of the .357 Magnum guns! Yes, this will be in a 6" revolver (Taurus 66).

Thoughts on this approach?

[suedenflames68]

I recently loaded up some berrys 158 round nose bullets in 38 special for my 686 6". I was worried about sticking a bullet and had the same thoughts as you about not worrying about the stregth of the gun, so I started at jacketed starting loads. 2 sources stated 3.8 and one was 3.7 gr. I made up some test loads at 3.7 , 4.0 , and 4.3 gr with win 231. I settled on 4.0 gr. The 3.7 seemed too soft but the 4.0 is still very light feeling to me and gave the best accuracy in my gun.

I did load longer than the books listed (by a good deal) though due to the profile of the bullet.

James

[Morne]

That brings up an interesting point - what cartridge length to use? I just loaded my first 5 cartridges and got 3 decent ones. Can't wait to go shooting! I used the longer LSWC lengths to be safer. Roughly 1.475" for a 158-gr X-treme copper plated SWC .38 special over 4.0 grains W231. Seem reasonable?

Jacketed the Hodgdon site shows 1.455" min length.

[mreising]

That brings up an interesting point - what cartridge length to use? I just loaded my first 5 cartridges and got 3 decent ones. Can't wait to go shooting! I used the longer LSWC lengths to be safer. Roughly 1.475" for a 158-gr X-treme copper plated SWC .38 special over 4.0 grains W231. Seem reasonable?

Jacketed the Hodgdon site shows 1.455" min length.

If you have access to a chronograph, check your velocities before you load up a bunch. I was loading up some 158 gr LSWC last night and I was only getting 560 fps from 4.0 gr of 231; Hodgdon site shows that as over maximum and Lyman #49 shows that as maximum for 158 gr LSWC (linotype alloy, i,e., hard- mine are softer ~12BHN). I wanted some soft loads but those were a little too light so I ended up bumping the charge up until I got ~725 fps. I know you're probably using the jacketed load data which allows up to 4.3 grains (Hodgdon site), so you're not at maximum yet. The Lee reloading manual shows higher charge weights.

[Morne]

That brings up an interesting point - what cartridge length to use? I just loaded my first 5 cartridges and got 3 decent ones. Can't wait to go shooting! I used the longer LSWC lengths to be safer. Roughly 1.475" for a 158-gr X-treme copper plated SWC .38 special over 4.0 grains W231. Seem reasonable?

Jacketed the Hodgdon site shows 1.455" min length.

If you have access to a chronograph, check your velocities before you load up a bunch. I was loading up some 158 gr LSWC last night and I was only getting 560 fps from 4.0 gr of 231; Hodgdon site shows that as over maximum and Lyman #49 shows that as maximum for 158 gr LSWC (linotype alloy, i,e., hard- mine are softer ~12BHN). I wanted some soft loads but those were a little too light so I ended up bumping the charge up until I got ~725 fps. I know you're probably using the jacketed load data which allows up to 4.3 grains (Hodgdon site), so you're not at maximum yet. The Lee reloading manual shows higher charge weights.

I will chrono before going high rate production, but what about LENGTH???

[JustaShooter]

I will chrono before going high rate production, but what about LENGTH???

For revolver rounds I load to the cannelure (if there is one) but I'm guessing that there isn't one in your case. That being so, loading to the longer length will be OK as long as it isn't so long that it hangs up the cylinder. For the most part, making sure the bullet is deep enough into the case to be held properly and short enough to fit in the gun are the two biggest things to worry about as long as you aren't near the extremes of the loading spectrum for that bullet/powder.


For your particular application, the (very) slightly longer LSWC length looks fine. It will give slightly lower pressure than a shorter length will give you so no worries in that regard.

[Morne]

I will chrono before going high rate production, but what about LENGTH???

For revolver rounds I load to the cannelure (if there is one) but I'm guessing that there isn't one in your case. That being so, loading to the longer length will be OK as long as it isn't so long that it hangs up the cylinder. For the most part, making sure the bullet is deep enough into the case to be held properly and short enough to fit in the gun are the two biggest things to worry about as long as you aren't near the extremes of the loading spectrum for that bullet/powder.


For your particular application, the (very) slightly longer LSWC length looks fine. It will give slightly lower pressure than a shorter length will give you so no worries in that regard.

Well now that is interesting, since on these rounds the case mouth is at the very bottom of the cannelure. Maybe I didn't seat them deep enough?

I understand that the load manual's OAL is for a specific bullet, which of course I don't have.

Since these are all going to be fired from a .357 revolver length is really, really not a limiting factor!

[JustaShooter]

Well now that is interesting, since on these rounds the case mouth is at the very bottom of the cannelure. Maybe I didn't seat them deep enough?

I load deeply enough that I can put a firm roll crimp into the cannelure. That generally means I can see about half of the cannelure on jacketed bullets with the fancy milled cannelure. That means the crimp is rolled over the bottom edge of the cannelure where it will do the most good IMO. On lead bullets with the plain, thin, groove cannelure I generally can't see much of the cannelure itself, the top of the case fits into the top of the groove.

I wish I had some good pictures, but hopefully you understand what I'm saying.

ETA: Here is a picture I found on the internet that shows what I'm talking about pretty well.

[Morne]

Apologies for non-optimum pics:





Input solicited!

[mreising]

It looks to me as if you are just a little shallow. It appears that the crimp is just barely at the bottom of the cannelure, and if so them you should seat them just a little shorter. I'm shooting cast LSWC 158 grain and they have a crimp groove that I seat to and crimp into. That gives me an overall length of 1.475. Your bullets have a cannelure, which is essentially a crimp groove and you should seat to have the roll crimp into it. That may give you a slightly shorter OAL than the book, but as noted before, those are with different bullets. Since you are shooting these in a 357 Magnum, you have more room to play with with OAL, and it is not super critical with revolvers anyway (as long as they don't extend past the front of the cylinder ). If you shoot heavy magnum loads you will want a very secure crimp. Variations in crimp and OAL will cause some variations in pressure from what the books values are but you have a lot of room to work with in this instance.

Let me know what velocities you get with your load, I'm curious as I was very surprised at the low velocity from my 4.0 grain 231 load.