Lack of load data for copper plated bullets? ETA data pg4-6

[BobK]

Maybe I should go shopping for some H-110 and try making some real magnum loads next.

If you use 2400 instead of H110, you will sacrifice a few FPS at max load. However, 2400 is much more forgiving with less than maximum loads. Hodgdon's website recommends going no lower than 3% below max for H110.

Interesting Chrony data. Wonder if you re-ran these loads this summer in 90 degree heat, how many fps would be gained.

[JustaShooter]

***CHRONY DATA***

20 Degrees F, 62% Relative Humidity, 30.27 Inches Hg


.38 Special 158-gr X-Treme copper plated SWC, CCI-500 SPP, 4.3-gr W-231, 1.468-1.476" COAL
Taurus Model 66 6" barrel
650.8, 692.9, 694.3, 668.1, 635.9 - AVERAGE = 668.4 fps

.38 Special 158-gr X-Treme copper plated SWC, CCI-500 SPP, 4.6-gr W-231, 1.466-1.476" COAL
Taurus Model 66 6" barrel
677.5, 692.7, 705.4, 704.1, 692.8 - AVERAGE = 694.5 fps

I took pictures of all the targets, but this was my best (.38 special with the 4.6-gr w-231 load):

For sure that 4.6gr load looks much better than the 4.3gr load, given all the variation in velocity. Looks accurate enough too!

[Morne]

Maybe I should go shopping for some H-110 and try making some real magnum loads next.

If you use 2400 instead of H110, you will sacrifice a few FPS at max load. However, 2400 is much more forgiving with less than maximum loads. Hodgdon's website recommends going no lower than 3% below max for H110.

Interesting Chrony data. Wonder if you re-ran these loads this summer in 90 degree heat, how many fps would be gained.

The problem is that I want the H-110 for .300 AAC Blackout loads in an AR pistol, too. Although, it seems like Lil Gun might be a better choice. There seems to be some debate about the wisdom of using 2400 in any semi-auto .300 BLK application.

Anybody here have first hand experience with Lil Gun?

Of course, FINDING the powder is the real trick. Stopped in at Gander Mountain today and they had no pistol powders at all. FFF was closed by the time the wife and I got out of our movie date.

[evan price]

.44 Magnum 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 9.0-gr W-231, 1.572-1.580" COAL
Taurus Model 44 6.5" ported barrel
953.7, 1011, 1001, 1004 - AVERAGE = 992.4 fps

I hate to say I told you so, but...



Anyway, now that you've worked up to what you know is a safe load it's probably better.

[Sevens]

Jeez, rookie, any proper date STARTS at Fin Feather Fur and develops from there, sheesh!

I have first hand experience with Hodgdon Lil'Gun.
There's good & bad with it.

Good
--Hodgdon powder, so decent price, great web resource for load data and though it's not at the top of anyone's list for popularity, you CAN find the stuff. Even now, during the powder drought, I've seen Lil'Gun.

--meters great through my equipment, a Lyman 55

--gives GREAT velocity, this is a true magnum powder here

Bad
--it has a reputation for erosion... and, umm, damaging revolvers.
Say what?!
I can't find a lot on this subject, and much of what I have found (and seems to be the easiest conversation to find...) all seems to come from the same guy, although he could most likely refer you to others. It seems, IIRC, that it was Freedom Arms that noticed loads specifically crafted with Lil'Gun were just tearing up the forcing cones of their .454 Casull revolvers and Lil'Gun loads were showing damage & erosion that they couldn't replicate with other powders.

Real?
Internet lore?
I don't know. However, I do know that I love my guns and so... I'm not fond of Lil'Gun, and I still have a good bit of it and I don't have a lot of use for it.

I will say that I chrono'd .357 Magnum at 1,436 FPS with a 158gr JSP when running a max load of Lil'Gun. That was a 10-shot average, not a single peak shot that I pulled out of the group. Five-inch barrel Coonan on a 72-degree day. That's safely over 700 ft/lbs of energy in that load.

[Morne]

What little internet research I've done on Lil Gun hiccups seems to be trouble with light bullets. Seeing as how I'm a heavy bullet man that doesn't worry me so much.

I love my guns, too. But seeing as how my magnum revolvers are almost all Taurus:
1) lifetime warranty
2) I'm risking low cash value guns

[Sevens]

I like it!
I say you give Lil'Gun a twirl, then. The stuff is available for purchase even now, when we can't find almost any of the popular propellants.

[Morne]

I like it!
I say you give Lil'Gun a twirl, then. The stuff is available for purchase even now, when we can't find almost any of the popular propellants.

Scored a jar of it at FFF today, along with CCI-350 magnum LPP. Magnum loadings here I come!

[Morne]

***CHRONY DATA***

.44 Magnum 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 9.0-gr W-231, 1.572-1.580" COAL
Taurus Model 44 6.5" ported barrel
953.7, 1011, 1001, 1004 - AVERAGE = 992.4 fps

Did this load again but shot it through my new (to me) gun.

39 Degrees F, 64% relative humidity, 29.97 inches Hg
Taurus 444 ultra lite with 4" barrel
982.1, 931.0, 947.1, 953.9, 994.9 - Average = 961.8 fps

Looks like shortening the barrel by 2.5 inches only dropped velocity by about 30 fps (discounting temperature change). That's not bad.

[Morne]

***CHRONY DATA***

60 Degrees F, 42% Relative Humidity, 1012.9 mB (stupid weather channel app changed the units for barometric pressure)

.45 ACP 230-gr X-Treme copper plated RN, CCI-300 LPP, 5.6-gr W-231, 1.256-1.265" COAL
Springfield Armory XD 45 Tactical Model 5.25" barrel
756.9, 761.1, 774.4, 759.2, 758.6 - AVERAGE = 762.0 fps

The good news on the above load is that they cycled the XD just fine every time. When assembling plinker loads it doesn't matter in revolvers but you wonder whether or not they'll reliably cycle the semi-autos. I ran 35 of these cartridges through the XD without a hitch.




.44 Special 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 6.0-gr W-231, 1.449-1.457" COAL
Taurus Model 444 ultra lite 4" barrel
743.4, 741.0, 731.9, 726.5, 732.8, 724.1, 706.8, 714.2, 708.1, 706.5 - AVERAGE = 723.5 fps

I got my hands on some actual .44 Special brass and built this load as a starting point. I didn't like it at all, the point of impact was significantly above my point of aim. I'm wondering what to try next with this cartridge?

[JustaShooter]

.44 Special 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 6.0-gr W-231, 1.449-1.457" COAL
Taurus Model 444 ultra lite 4" barrel
743.4, 741.0, 731.9, 726.5, 732.8, 724.1, 706.8, 714.2, 708.1, 706.5 - AVERAGE = 723.5 fps

I got my hands on some actual .44 Special brass and built this load as a starting point. I didn't like it at all, the point of impact was significantly above my point of aim. I'm wondering what to try next with this cartridge?

What is significantly above point of aim, and at what distance? If you have some headroom to work with, speeding it up should bring your POI down. From what I know of the .44 special, those velocities are pretty tame - something around 800fps should easily be attainable without overpressure with the right powder, but I'm not sure about 231 since it isn't listed on http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for that particular load and I'm too lazy to grab my manuals.

If necessary, change to a powder with the ability to go faster safely as that will allow you to find a load that shoots to POA.

[Morne]

.44 Special 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 6.0-gr W-231, 1.449-1.457" COAL
Taurus Model 444 ultra lite 4" barrel
743.4, 741.0, 731.9, 726.5, 732.8, 724.1, 706.8, 714.2, 708.1, 706.5 - AVERAGE = 723.5 fps

I got my hands on some actual .44 Special brass and built this load as a starting point. I didn't like it at all, the point of impact was significantly above my point of aim. I'm wondering what to try next with this cartridge?

What is significantly above point of aim, and at what distance? If you have some headroom to work with, speeding it up should bring your POI down. From what I know of the .44 special, those velocities are pretty tame - something around 800fps should easily be attainable without overpressure with the right powder, but I'm not sure about 231 since it isn't listed on http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for that particular load and I'm too lazy to grab my manuals.

If necessary, change to a powder with the ability to go faster safely as that will allow you to find a load that shoots to POA.

Don't know how much above, was just shooting the resetting steel plate target today. Had to aim for the base of it to hit anywhere on it, any other hold sent them sailing over (but still into my berm).

W-231 is same as HP-38. The hodgdon data on this is tame. Lee 14 shows 6.3-gr with a, "do not reduce," notation. I guess I should try a full 6.3 and then 6.6. Since these will all be out of a magnum gun I have little fear about overpowering anything.

[JustaShooter]

.44 Special 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 6.0-gr W-231, 1.449-1.457" COAL
Taurus Model 444 ultra lite 4" barrel
743.4, 741.0, 731.9, 726.5, 732.8, 724.1, 706.8, 714.2, 708.1, 706.5 - AVERAGE = 723.5 fps

I got my hands on some actual .44 Special brass and built this load as a starting point. I didn't like it at all, the point of impact was significantly above my point of aim. I'm wondering what to try next with this cartridge?

What is significantly above point of aim, and at what distance? If you have some headroom to work with, speeding it up should bring your POI down. From what I know of the .44 special, those velocities are pretty tame - something around 800fps should easily be attainable without overpressure with the right powder, but I'm not sure about 231 since it isn't listed on http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for that particular load and I'm too lazy to grab my manuals.

If necessary, change to a powder with the ability to go faster safely as that will allow you to find a load that shoots to POA.

Don't know how much above, was just shooting the resetting steel plate target today. Had to aim for the base of it to hit anywhere on it, any other hold sent them sailing over (but still into my berm).

W-231 is same as HP-38. The hodgdon data on this is tame. Lee 14 shows 6.3-gr with a, "do not reduce," notation. I guess I should try a full 6.3 and then 6.6. Since these will all be out of a magnum gun I have little fear about overpowering anything.

Sounds like a plan - the only other way to get POI to match POA (without modifying the sights) is to adjust bullet weight. Faster/lighter = lower, heavier/slower = higher.

[Morne]

Sounds like a plan - the only other way to get POI to match POA (without modifying the sights) is to adjust bullet weight. Faster/lighter = lower, heavier/slower = higher.

Yeah, it could just be that 240-gr is heavier than the norm for 44 special. I think 200-gr is more common. Meh, I'll adjust powder first and toss some at paper targets to get a better idea of where I can get to before buying lighter slugs.

[Morne]

***CHRONY DATA***

73 Degrees F, 72% Relative Humidity, 1019.1 mB

.44 Special 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 6.3-gr W-231, 1.445-1.453" COAL
Taurus Model 445 Titanium with 2" ported barrel
694.2, 681.7, 658.8, 675.1, 686.4 - AVERAGE = 679.2 fps

This load showed much better accuracy. Of course, I ran it in a snub barrel rather than a full size but also in a gun that is a .44 Special only, not a magnum. Thus. The fixed sights on the 445 snub were just about dead on. I think this will be my .44 Special practice load from now on.

As a point of reference, the CCI Blazer aluminum cased 200-gr GDHP .44 Special averaged 716.8 fps out of this same revolver and impacted at basically the same spot on my resetting steel target.