Common powder for .357mag and .45colt jacketed loads

[gimp]

My wife has a couple of S&W revolvers in .357 and I am slowly procuring firearms for SASS in .45 Colt, so far I have a marlin 1894 with 2 Ruger Vaqueros to follow. What I am looking for however is to create non SASS full power jacketed loads in .45 Colt as well as full power jacketed rounds for the .357 preferably with a common powder. I have looked through my manuals, Lee 2nd edition, Lyman 49th, Hornady 7th, Speer 14th, and the various powder manufacturers data for ideas. In looking at 125gr and 158gr projectiles in .357 and 200gr and 250gr projectiles in .45 Colt, it seems the powders with the most loads in both calibers are as follows.

Unique
Power Pistol
AA #5
Win231/HP38
Hodgdon Universal Clays
TiteGroup
700X

Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with these powders and projectile weights in these cartridges?

[BobK]

If I wanted to load full power loads for those cartridges, I'd be using H110, 2400, or Blue Dot (distant 3rd -- poor metering).

[glocksmith]

2400 gets my vote everytime.

[Sevens]

Unique
Power Pistol
AA #5
Win231/HP38
Hodgdon Universal Clays
TiteGroup
700X

Not a single one of these powders is ever going to be the best choice for full-boat jacketed magnum loads in .357 Magnum.
Never.
Not ever.
Unique & Universal can make mid-range loads with all bullet weights. Power Pistol can make some decent(ish) snappy loads with light bullet weights. The others are target powders at best and running them to maximum in .357 Magnum can make high pressure loads that fall well short of true magnum performance. As an unhappy bonus, the maximum end increases at an increasing rate and the pressure curve is very sharp, it doesn't make a predictable build like a true slow burning magnum powder will. "Max" loads that "appear" safe in one instance can be not so safe when something changes.

Absolute reality: if you use Titegroup, you'll put your revolver & brass through the same (or MORE?!) stress as a proper load, you'll just get 150-300 less feet per second behind the bullet. And you'll be running a pressure curve that doesn't look like a predictable climb when plotted on a graph... it'll look like the craggy peak of Everest and it has the potential to go from "MAX" to "UH-OH" if you screw something up or change something.

Fast powders like W231 and Titgegroup are sometimes used in .357 Magnum. Most folks do it simply because they have the powder, they don't feel like buying other, different, better powder and they don't really care if they aren't reaching the velocity potential. -OR-, they do it because they read a published source for load data and a load is listed so they figure it must be a good idea. Now that's fine. For their needs, it allows them to stock less powders and they don't worry about having to shop for a large array of propellents. They try to use "one powder for everydamnthing" and that's their right, even if I don't agree with it. They also get a (small) side benefit that fast burning powders use MUCH smaller charge weights in magnum loads than the proper, better, slower burning powders.

If you wish to make lighter target loads in .357 Magnum where the velocity is nowhere near magnum and the felt recoil is far, far less, a fast burning powder can be a decent choice for that task. But to make a real .357 Magnum load that offers the full potential of the round? None of the fast burning powders can do it without peaking -FAR- beyond safe maximum pressures.

The most versatile, flexible, easiest metering, enjoyable to work with and nicely performing all the way around "slow" burning handgun powder?
It's probably Alliant 2400. This stuff has been used almost as long as Bullseye and Unique. Skeeter used it and Elmer built a legacy around his use of it.

Other options are H110/W296, Accurate#9, Alliant Power Pro 300-MP, and definitely some of the Ramshot powders. (they get great reviews but I have no hands-on experience with them) IMR-4227 can be used in some applications also.

[Sevens]

I put some energy behind these discussions because I started out exactly the same way and it took me a while before I understood what was happening inside the round. When I was new to handloading (as I suspect happens to most...) powders were simply a bunch of brand names and it's hard to look at a list of them and see any trends. As I began to understand the differences in powder choices, it opened a new world... or at least a new way of looking at things.

In my post, I never once mentioned .45 Colt. That's because it's somewhat of an oddball and I have just a pittance of hands-on experience with .45 Colt. I am not a great source of info on handloading that round, but there ARE a few things you should know about it before you investigate further.

First off, this is an OLD round that was developed on black powder. So the original and "normal" loads for it today run a VERY sedate bullet speed. But the case is gargantuan, and this can be an issue. At it's best, .45 Colt is loaded with a soft lead bullet that is big and heavy and a good fluffy powder that eats up some of that huge space inside that case. And bullet speed is S-L-O-W.

.45 Colt that you have asked about is a much more modern load and only some guns are recommended for it, and I believe that both the Ruger and Marlin lever guns make that cut. But it's out of my area of experience. I would have to imagine that it's similar to making .44 Magnum loads, but likely a bit less caustic and nasty. In that vein, the powders that are good for .357 Magnum should also be good for .45 Colt (heavy) loads.

But understand that if you do end up wanting to make tradition .45 Colt loads... none of the slow burning magnum powders we've suggested have any application. For those old-school loads, Trail Boss is extremely popular.

[stephen45-70]

i have to agree with sevens opinion on the .357 .. you just can not go wrong with 2400 .. a close second is w296/h110 ( same powder differant labels , unless you have old stock ) , fast powders are not your friend for high performance loads

i do have a lot of experiance with the .45 colt from popgun loads on up .. and in a modern revolver that means way way way up there. and before i mention what i have used and would recomend you should clarify when you consider full power .

while considering that .. also consider what is top end for a saa is not even close to what you can do with a freedom arms
and while a vaquero is plenty strong they are not super black hawks and you can get yourself in trouble mighty fast when up in the ruger only loads

also keep in mind currant production vaqueros are not the equal of older vaqueros due to rugr changing frame size .

[gimp]

It is valuable input like the posts above as to why I come here seeking wisdom. If I may try to answer a few questions.

All: I guess I overlooked 2400 primarily since I found only limited data for the .45Colt, and all I did find was for the heavier 250gr projectiles. I had a feeling it would be a favorite however since I have read a lot about it in the .357Mag.

Stephen45-70: The W296 /h110 I did not know were the same powders. I was able to find lots of data for it in the .357 and alas none in .45Colt. I am aware of the differences in limits for the New Model Ruger vs the Old Model and so I am sticking with the more traditional low pressure loads instead of the Ruger/TC only stuff. I guess when I define full power loads in .45Colt I am hoping to launch 200, 230 ,or 250 grain quality jacketed hollowpoints between 800-900fps from a 5 1/2" barrel. That being said groups come before velocity, and with the fixed sight Rugers I realize I may have to adjust velocity or projectile to match point of aim to point of impact.

Stevens 2nd post: In looking at powders I realized as I put together my spreadsheet for comparing these rounds I did eliminate some powders simpily due to unfamiliarity ie:the SR powders as well as a few others. The large volume of the .45Colt case makes powder selection a bit more difficult even for the lighter loads, ie: bullseye being position sensitive, I think that is why Titegroup, position insensitive, and Trailboss, very volumous, are so popular. As far as the SASS loads, my father-in-law is running 6gr of trailboss under a 200gr LRNFP. I already managed to snag 3 9oz containers of trailboss to begin load development and to get started loading. I imagine I will be running a similar powder weight as the father-in-law for those purposes. I know some run lighter projectiles at slower velocitys I am kind of partial to keeping the loads a little closer to historic and a bit less competitive. I plan on participating for fun not serious competition. Meanwhile I like to explore the full versitility of a firearm and so I am looking at these jacketed loads for that reason.

Stevens 1st post: Awesome information!! I again found no data in my sources for the .45Colt for H110/W296, Accurate #9, IMR-4227, or Power Pro 300-MP. That cavernous .45Colt case is a whole world apart from the more recent .357Mag. I suspect that volume and the original design of each case is the source of my difficulties in really trying to better exploit the .45's potential with the same powder.

BobK: pretty much summed up what everyone else was thinking, just with fewer words.

I guess I may have to look at either keeping the .45Colt in a dedicated role as a SASS gun, or explore a second powder for the .45. That being said it looks like 2400 is a favorite in the .357 now just a matter of finding some of it in stock somewhere.

Thanks all

[stephen45-70]

i wouldnt worry a whole lot yet on where your sights are regulated .. once you find the load you want to shoot
You can adjust your front sight to it with a file.

Now if your looking for 900-1000fps with the .45colt ... right where you should be .. in my opinion
You are going to be hard pressed to find a better choice then unique
800-1000 fps puts you right where unique works its best.

Now for my own highly opinionated opinion .... you do know it is nothing but a pure
Criminal to load jacketed bullets in the colt right?
I just cant grasp the thought process that would lead you down that dirty road .

Save a few bucks ...... buy lead bullets .. they can do everything a j word can and more

Ok anti copper rant off ... but if you ever start shooting a bit slower aka cowboy loads
You will find lead does a bit better at lower velocities .

[stephen45-70]

i feel a bit let down in myself for not mentioning .... fffg black powder
the best powder to load in the .45 colt