Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

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Klingon00
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Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by Klingon00 »

So, I finally found components after months of searching. I got my lee turret press all set up with a Lee Carbide 3 die set and started reloading.

The manuals recommend using the Lee sizing lubrication which came with my turret press package deal. I haven't used this before because I've only reloaded straight walled pistol cartridges and so far haven't seemed to need it for those. .223 seems to be a different beast due to the bottleneck cases. I learned this the hard way...

When starting out, the directions said to use lube sparingly, so I did. Got the third case stuck and tore up the rim. Cursing, I followed directions for dislodging a stuck case, but had a heck of a time getting the case off the decapper pin.

I used a little more lube and got 20 rounds successfully through my press and tested them successfully. All seems well.

Next batch, with a day in between, the first case I ran through came out of the sizing/de capper die encrusted in what looked like dried and caked on lube... nasty but I just shrugged and kept on going. Got to the 7th case and it got stuck. While dislodging the case, I noticed the de capper pin was encrusted in nasty dried gunk around the ends of the swelled sizing part and what looks like spots of rust... :(

I cleaned everything up and put the die back together. Got stuck again 4 cases later.... used even MORE lube on each case, mostly inside the neck to where brass was visibly coated... SUCCESS! I was able to get the remainder of 100 cases through the sizing process fairly easy.

Questions:

1. Is my experience normal or could I have a defective die?
2. Should I have this much trouble from carbide dies and can the lube cause rust to form? I don't have problems with rust on my other dies that I've noticed.
3. Do I need to disassemble my die after each use and clean out excess crud? Use a rust prohibitor?
4. Is Lee case lube the best I can be using? Are there any superior products out there?

Thanks!
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by BigV »

I only occasionally clean my rifle dies and I only use home made case lube. It's better than anything you can buy and is cheap and easy to make.

Home Made Case Lube

Step One -Gather contents -
Liquid Lanolin (100% pure was $7.00 at the local health food store)
Isopropyl Alcohol (at minimum 91% $1.19 at the local drug store - 99% is best couldn't find it)
If you go to an Auto Store ISO HEET is 99% Isopropyl
New or Clean spray bottle (from the "Dollar" store) has ratio markings and ounce markings so it helps


Step Two
Warm the Lanolin in warm tap water (110 to 120 degrees F - NO OPEN FLAMES!)
Do the same for the IPA, this will help in the mixing process.

Step Three
Pour 2 (two) ounces of the warmed Lanolin into the spray bottle

Step Four
Pour 16 (sixteen) ounces of the warmed IPA into the spray bottle giving you an 1:8 ratio
This seem to be the ratio that best mimics Dillon Spray Lube (add more IPA if you feel it is too thick in your dies)

Step Five
Shake until contents becomes homogonized and label the bottle accordingly (so you don't confuse it with CLP or something)

Then proceed to lube cases as needed. I left some room in case I needed to adjust the ratio depending on the dies and how finicky they may be. This Ratio seems to work fine for me. I did about 300 once fired LC headstamps and it was smooth as silk.

Let cases dry for 15 minutes before sizing begins
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by JediSkipdogg »

How are you lubing? What "parts" of the case are you lubing?

Firstly , Dillon is the only one I believe that makes a .223 carbide die. So if you have a Lee one, wow, you have some gold on your hands as I've never found one.

Personally, I hate the Lee Lube, I just never had much success with it. I use the RCBS Lube and Lube Pad. I lube only the body of the case. I apply sparringly (a little goes a long way) to the lube to the pad and then place around 40 cases on the pad and roll them back and forth. That way only the case body is lubed. After I deprime and resize I throw them back in the tumbler for about 20-30 minutes and that gets all the lube off. Haven't had a stuck case since I've been using that method. The only thing you have to watch out for is any tumbler media getting stuck in the primer pocket, a quick check and a nail pops any that may have gotten stuck.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by JustaShooter »

1: I've never used carbide dies for bottlenecked cases but it doesn't sound normal for plain old steel dies (though to be honest I don't have a ton of experience reloading bottlenecked cases, and none -yet- with .223). It sounds like you are using way more lube than I do on my .243 and .30-06 cases and having way more problems.
2: I wouldn't think you'd have that much trouble with carbide dies, and yes if the lube holds moisture it can promote rust formation.
3: I've never needed to do so, but I've never needed to use as much lube as it sounds like you are. Before putting them away I do take the die apart and clean and lube it, but that's just the tool guy in me, not due to need.
4: Better lubes than Lee? Probably, there is always something better! :) I use RCBS case lube (because I got some in a big trade, not because I specifically chose it), the kind designed to be put on a pad and cases rolled across it, but I don't use it that way. I get a dab on my finger and thumb and twirl the cases between my finger and thumb from base to just below the neck, then I touch the case mouth to my thumb to get just the barest bit of lube around the inside of the case mouth. I've heard the best lube out there is Imperial Sizing Wax, but I've never used it. I've heard it is just anhydrous lanolin which you can get from the pharmacy...

Something you might consider: Polishing the expander ball on the decapping rod - I do this and it really makes things feel much more smooth. (I'd actually recommend polishing the dies body if they weren't carbide - that is supposed to be smoother than polished steel already!). To do this, you'll need something like Flitz or other fine-grit polishing compound, a drill motor and a cloth (I use a piece of old tshirt). Chuck the decapping rod in the drill, put a glob of polishing compound on the cloth, hold the cloth in one hand and spin the expander ball on the decapping rod in the compound-covered cloth. I apply a bit of pressure with my fingers/thumb and move the expander ball forward & back to get the entire surface smoothed out, and run the drill on low - not sure how many RPM that is. Change spots on the cloth & add new compound when it gets really black.

BTW, are you cleaning the cases before you size them? I always de-cap my brass (using a Lee universal decapping die) then run them through the tumbler to clean and slightly polich them before sizing. That way I don't have to worry about grit and crud getting into my dies.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by Sevens »

Klingon00 wrote:1. Is my experience normal or could I have a defective die?
2. Should I have this much trouble from carbide dies and can the lube cause rust to form? I don't have problems with rust on my other dies that I've noticed.
3. Do I need to disassemble my die after each use and clean out excess crud? Use a rust prohibitor?
4. Is Lee case lube the best I can be using? Are there any superior products out there?
1) Very unlikely you have a bad die. .223 is, ummm, nasty when it comes to sizing. Always has been.
2) Unless you have a "new to market" product, I don't know that anyone makes "carbide" sizing dies for bottle neck rifle rounds.
3) If you have rust, you must be in an awfully wet environment, or:
4) Lee case lube isn't the worst stuff on the market (Hornady One-Shot is...) and I've used it in the past with success, but I don't use it anymore. It is a water-based product and might be part of the reason you see or believe there is some rusting going on. Also, the Lee case lube acts differently depending on if you use it right away, or allow it to dry on the cases.

I use Imperial and you'll find LEGIONS of dedicated loaders who use Imperial. You typically won't find any high volume loaders that use it, because it simply is not FAST as you apply it one piece at a time. I'm okay with that, and high volume loaders use their stuff and their methods work ABSOLUTELY well, for them and their needs. At my slow pace (for rifle ammo), I'm fine with Imperial and the slow nature of it.

With Imperial, or any lube you put on by hand with each piece (not spray and roll like others), you want your case lube near the head and not near the shoulder of the case. Too much lube near the shoulder of the case will get in the die and crush the shoulder because it has no escape path. A decent application of Imperial on the bottom half to 3/4 of each case and you PROBABLY won't have any of the trouble you listed.

Imperial comes in a teeny weenie little tin at a relatively high price. You might GULP when you see how much you get for your money. But this stuff lasts f-o-r-e-v-e-r, so take the plunge and report back.

Good luck.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by sdelam »

I have had zero stuck cases since switching to imperial. Its good stuff.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by evan price »

I use the Lyman Qwik lube spray. In a pinch when I was out I used Pam cooking spray. Make sure you gt the inside of the neck a little lube so the expander doesn't get stuck.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by JustaShooter »

Sevens wrote:Unless you have a "new to market" product, I don't know that anyone makes "carbide" sizing dies for bottle neck rifle rounds.
Dillon does: http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/ ... 98/catid/4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For high volume users, such as commercial reloaders, law enforcement agencies, and high power or service rifle competitors, we also offer .223 and .308 die sets with a full-length carbide sizing die. Lubrication is still required, but the increased scratch resistance and die longevity of carbide are of great benefit to these groups of users.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by JustaShooter »

Klingon00, can you confirm the brand and model of dies? If Dillon, the sizing die also has a carbide expander ball and you probably shouldn't try polishing it. If Lee, I can't find a carbide rifle die set made by them - handgun, yes, but not rifle...

And if they aren't carbide then I'd recommend polishing the inside of the sizing die body as well as the expander ball - same basic procedure, but use a tight fitting bore mop coated with Flitz or your polishing compound of choice.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by Klingon00 »

I just now double checked and I'm mistaken. The Lee die does not say carbide on it anywhere. I bought some carbide .38 special dies at the same time and think that's where I got myself confused between the two.

With the Lee lube, I use a q-tip to apply some to the sides but not the shoulder area (as per instructions) and I also apply some to the inside of the neck. It would seem it's the expander that is getting stuck. Using a decent coverage of lube inside the neck seems to be working.

With spray and pad, how do you get the necks lubed? Do you just stand them up and spray across the opening?

Is Imperial applied much like the lee lube?

Thanks all for the responses.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by Klingon00 »

I forgot to ask, Lee's lube claims it is safe with powder and primers. Are there any concerns with any of the above mentioned lubes in this regard? Do I need to clean the cases again before continuing or anything like that?
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by JediSkipdogg »

For me I've never lubed the case mouth. Never had a problem with not doing that. The only time I've ever had a stuck one is when the rim breaks or I pick up a piece that I forgot to lube. Very rare, maybe 1 in a 2000 that happens to. Of course, on occasion (maybe once every 250) I take the die set, turn it upset down, and pour a small amount of the RCBS lube in the die. I'd venture to say that's helping my case mouths.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by evan price »

When I'm doing rifle, I save the plastic trays from pistol ammo. 308 Win, I use 45 acp trays. 223 Rem, I use 9mm trays. I like the heavy thick ones like Remington uses.

Stand up the brass in every other hole alternating. You'll have 25 pieces on each tray. Shake up the Lyman Qwik spray, spray across one side, rotate the tray 90 degrees, repeat, do this for each of the four sides. I angle the spray so that it also gets in the case mouths. Don't go nuts with the lube, apply it as if you were just putting on a light first coat of spray paint.
Let the sprayed cases sit long enough that the carrier evaporates, leaving the lube on the cases. With spray lubes you cn't just sptray and immediately size, the carrier dilutes the lube so it is sprayable and it will stick a case if you don't let it sit.

After resizing I trim, chamfer and deburr. Then the cases go into my low-speed tumbler with corncob to get the lube off. Takes a half hour or so.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by JustaShooter »

evan price wrote:After resizing I trim, chamfer and deburr. Then the cases go into my low-speed tumbler with corncob to get the lube off. Takes a half hour or so.
I tumble first then trim to length, chamfer & deburr under the theory that the tumbling peens the case mouth & work hardens it (see http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Neck_Chamfer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Probably meaningless at my level of competency at reloading and shooting, but it makes sense to me to do it in that order.
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Re: Started loading .223, Lubrication issue?

Post by evan price »

JustaShooter wrote:
evan price wrote:After resizing I trim, chamfer and deburr. Then the cases go into my low-speed tumbler with corncob to get the lube off. Takes a half hour or so.
I tumble first then trim to length, chamfer & deburr under the theory that the tumbling peens the case mouth & work hardens it (see http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Neck_Chamfer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Probably meaningless at my level of competency at reloading and shooting, but it makes sense to me to do it in that order.
I tumble first, deprime, swage, resize, trim, chamfer, deburr and tumble again in a low agitation tumbler with corncob to clean off the lube but not ding up the case mouths.
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