Reloads

[jmr600]

Just wondering if you trust your reloads for your carry weapon. I do trust mine, I would not use reloads from another source. I've been reloading for a long time with a pretty good track record. I've seen about as many factory rounds not go boom as reloads. Jim

[JustaShooter]

I trust my handloads as much as I do factory ammo, but I carry premium factory personal defense ammo (Speer Gold Dot). I've seen the arguments both for and against and to me it isn’t worth the (admittedly miniscule) additional risk.

[Cloudwraith]

I reload quite a bit as well. I'm more accurate with my reloads and I prefer shooting them over normal factory ammo. That being said, I carry premium self defense ammo in my EDC. I do practice with them from time to time so as not to be surprised by the higher recoil over my reloads but I've read stories of prosecutors using every single detail against a self-defense shooter. This includes such things as non factory ammo ("He developed special killing loads to be more effective in taking someones life") that I just would rather not have in the equation while trying to defend myself in court.

[BobK]

I have also chosen to use commercial self-defense ammo.

Regarding the handload recoil versus commercial self-defense recoil, I also worked up a handload that is pretty close to the same bullet weight and velocity of my self defense ammo. That way, I can practice with similar recoil.

[ArmedAviator]

I don't reload myself, but I use a ammo from a small-scale operation, but it is quality stuff. Stan Chen makes some good SD ammo.

[jmr600]

I reload quite a bit as well. I'm more accurate with my reloads and I prefer shooting them over normal factory ammo. That being said, I carry premium self defense ammo in my EDC. I do practice with them from time to time so as not to be surprised by the higher recoil over my reloads but I've read stories of prosecutors using every single detail against a self-defense shooter. This includes such things as non factory ammo ("He developed special killing loads to be more effective in taking someones life") that I just would rather not have in the equation while trying to defend myself in court.

this is why i have chose to carry factory loads, you will have enough to deal with if you are forced to use your weapon. i have never seen it as fact or a Internet rumor but I'm sure there is a prosecutor out there that would love to play it out. i prefer he plays it on someone else... Jim

[walnut red]

Since I never buy ammo with the thought "I may have to shoot someone and this looks effective" I carry what I practice with. This means that I normally carry my reloads which will probably be a SWC or FP cast bullet. Just wait until the first time a prosecutor holds up a box of Hornady Zombie ammo or any aggressive hollow point ammo in front of a jury. Remember the rhetoric over the old Black Talon ammo?

[deanimator]

I handload all of my practice ammunition.

All of my carry ammunition is factory hollowpoints.

For self-defense purposes, handloads can create forensic ambiguities. Ninety nine times out of a hundred it won't matter. That one time can get you sent to prison if you get malicious cops and or a malicious prosecutor.

[Klingon00]

I trust my reloads very much. They shoot well for me and I know each has been inspected by me personally. I've had several cheap commercial FMJ with issues in the past that I would classify as potentially dangerous so at this point, I would say I trust my hand loads more than some of the commercial ammo available.

That said, when it comes to ammo that I carry for self defense, I don't currently have access to all the various testing equipment like chronographs or ballistic gelatin to ensure that ammo that I hand load would meet minimum FBI standards of performance that most of the commercial JHP has undergone. In that case, I will go with what has a proven track record.

What may work fine for shooting steel targets for recreation has different tolerance and performance requirements than what I want to trust in a life and death situation.

[SMMAssociates]

I'm relatively new to doing my own reloading, but have had access to (and used) all kinds of "factory" reloads and some stuff a buddy of mine cranks out. He's sufficiently anal to keep me happy with the quality ....

However, it's still decent advice to run with commercial SD rounds, and preferrably the stuff the local PD or Sheriff's Deputies are carrying. One less thing to get into it over....

IMHO, a Criminal case rarely gets into this stuff, but the Civil trial is pretty much a free-for-all.

(There was a guy "out West" who actually did prison time because he was carrying a 10mm and the Prosecutor managed to convince the Court that it implied some kind of intent to kill somebody. A much better lawyer and a lot of money fixed that, eventually.)

BobK's got the right idea, though - if you can work up a reload that feels like the SD loads you're carrying, it might be a good idea to practice with them.

Regards,

[Sevens]

I've seen about as many factory rounds not go boom as reloads.

I don't think I've seen THAT many failures with factory ammo, but it makes sense to keep in mind that BY FAR, the bulk of factory ammo that anyone ever buys, shoots, or sees others shoot at any range is, simply by the numbers, the cheaper stuff on the market.

Many shoot Winchester white box, Federal American Eagle or Blazer Brass -- likely some of the most quality of all the cheapest center fire new production ammo in the world -- but STILL, the cheapest in those companies entire lines. And many are shooting Fiocchi, S&B, Aguila, Wolf, Tula, Herter's, RWS, Blazer Aluminum, Rem-UMC, PMC, Prvi Partizan and god knows what else, and all of these tend to be even a notch or two below.

You could maybe have some validity to being overly suspect about the quality, reliability and function of "factory ammo" if everyone on the range (all the time) and you yourself were putting nothing through any of the guns except for high dollar Cor-Bon, Win PDX or Ranger-T, Federal HST, CCI Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Hornady TAP or Critical Duty, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Black Hills Gold, or any of the other "more than a buck a round even before the panic hit" kind of extremely expensive defense ammo.

It's good to be cautious and skeptical, but we sometimes have a genuine knack for twisting our observations to fit our needs.

I shoot my handloaded ammo exclusively and I shoot an awful lot of it. I choose to carry high-dollar factory defense ammo in my defense guns.

[Werz]

I've read stories of prosecutors using every single detail against a self-defense shooter. This includes such things as non factory ammo ("He developed special killing loads to be more effective in taking someones life") that I just would rather not have in the equation while trying to defend myself in court.

this is why i have chose to carry factory loads, you will have enough to deal with if you are forced to use your weapon. i have never seen it as fact or a Internet rumor but I'm sure there is a prosecutor out there that would love to play it out. i prefer he plays it on someone else... Jim

For self-defense purposes, handloads can create forensic ambiguities. Ninety nine times out of a hundred it won't matter. That one time can get you sent to prison if you get malicious cops and or a malicious prosecutor.

I would really like to see that documented as something other than Internet mythology ... like an actual trial transcript. It makes no sense. Deadly force can be presumed from shooting someone with .22 Short LRN, and most people's handloads pale in comparison to premium self-defense ammunition.

Of course, my handloads always have the full specs detailed on the box. When I get a chronometer, it will have the average velocity and muzzle energy, too.

[deanimator]

For self-defense purposes, handloads can create forensic ambiguities. Ninety nine times out of a hundred it won't matter. That one time can get you sent to prison if you get malicious cops and or a malicious prosecutor.

I would really like to see that documented as something other than Internet mythology ... like an actual trial transcript. It makes no sense. Deadly force can be presumed from shooting someone with .22 Short LRN, and most people's handloads pale in comparison to premium self-defense ammunition.

Of course, my handloads always have the full specs detailed on the box. When I get a chronometer, it will have the average velocity and muzzle energy, too.

If I remember correctly, that was the analysis of Massad Ayoob. I don't always agree with what he says, but I've never heard him say anything I'd characterize as "stupid".

[gaptrick]

... and as far as matching recoil goes, I don't think one of us in a life or death, in fear for my life self defense situation is going to HEAR the report(s) and much less notice ANY recoil... and that even goes for those of us who practice with .22 shorts but carry a DE...

[Werz]

For self-defense purposes, handloads can create forensic ambiguities. Ninety nine times out of a hundred it won't matter. That one time can get you sent to prison if you get malicious cops and or a malicious prosecutor.

I would really like to see that documented as something other than Internet mythology ... like an actual trial transcript. It makes no sense. Deadly force can be presumed from shooting someone with .22 Short LRN, and most people's handloads pale in comparison to premium self-defense ammunition.

Of course, my handloads always have the full specs detailed on the box. When I get a chronometer, it will have the average velocity and muzzle energy, too.

If I remember correctly, that was the analysis of Massad Ayoob. I don't always agree with what he says, but I've never heard him say anything I'd characterize as "stupid".

I'm glad you mentioned that. I like to research those things. Ayoob makes some good observations in this series.

As to the type of ammunition used, particularly regarding the ubiquitous "hollow-points debate," he seems to think very little of that:

A good resource on that would be some of the legal writings of attorney Lisa Steele. Lisa is an appellate lawyer out of the Northeast, and she’s seen the same sort of thing that I’ve seen – the demonization of the hollow point thing, as an indication of malice on the part of the user and all that. And I’ve found it takes five minutes in court to shoot it down.

I agree. Arguing about the ammunition is a loser. No experienced prosecutor would do that, at least not in the State of Ohio.

He does have a concern about firearm modifications, including one which folks around here like to crow about ... trigger jobs:

The two things I would strongly advise against doing and have strongly advised against doing, would be a trigger pull lighter than the factory recommends, and removal or de-activation of a safety device. *** As far as the light trigger pull, your problem there, number one, is it has historically been linked to unintended discharges. *** Where the accidental discharge theory comes, is they know you have a justifiable shooting, but you’ve got either the rare prosecutor that is politically driven and has some political hay to make by hanging you out to dry, or the much less-rare plaintiff’s lawyer who’s trying to sue you or your insurance company for something – mainly your insurance company. *** They know there is no such thing as a justifiable accident.

That's a good point, too. Nobody thinks about that. People don't consider the fact that it may be better to say, "I thought he was going to kill me, so I shot him!" People like to minimize, and they may say, "I was just trying to keep him away, and all of a sudden ... the gun went off!" Reckelssness and negligence is a lot easier to prove, and with a civil attorney, it means payday!

But even more important is another point he makes. When asked what "red flags" affect the decision to prosecute in a potential self-defense case, he said:

Well, the person who seems angry at the scene is a red flag. That’s never good. *** It’s a real good idea not to be wearing a T-Shirt that reads “Kill a Commie for Mommy ” or something similar. I used to jokingly tell students, say that when the cops got there that it was a bad idea to be jumping up and down, yelling, “I got one! I got one! I finally got one!” And then life imitates art and humor, apparently.

I could not agree more. That's why I really don't like to see a lot of "tough guy talk" in these forums. If someone here is ever challenged on a self-defense shooting, a printout of his/her forum postings could be stronger evidence than a bucket full of .454 Casull hot loads.