.500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby Morne » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:30 pm

Sevens wrote:I think we discussed powder coated cast bullets in another of your threads. Since that time I have had the chance to work up a load and even chrono it in .357 Magnum through my Ruger 77/357 bolt action rifle. Using a 180-grain powder coated slug, I can send them over 1,500 fps consistently (18-inch barrel) and this without a trace of ANYTHING left in my bore.

Very, very happy with these, and I had to comment because your post made it seem as though powder coated slugs may not be good for velocity-- I can say that in my application (obviously different than yours), they seem to LOVE the speed! 8)

Funny you should mention - I've been playing with .357 Mag powder coated bullets for high speed applications as well. I don't have my data in front of me but the short version is that the 130-gr coated RNFPs can motor along quite fast from .357 Mag guns. The 20" barreled lever action rifle gets them really hopping along.

All of which is new territory for me, because before this I saw powder coated as strictly something cheap/clean to use for low-velocity practice ammo. I have rolled many hundreds of .38 Spl, .44 Spl, and .45 ACP with coated bullets for practice rounds and been quite pleased. I'm sure I'll continue to do so, too. I still like my plated rounds, of course, but coated sure is nice. The trial boss loads described in this thread are essentially ".500 Specials" loaded in magnum cases. As we've frequently discussed, when shooting for low-speed/low-recoil you might worry a bit with plated/jacketed bullets. Not so with bare lead (which I don't like to use) or coated (which I am really starting to like).

I also have some .300 Blackout rounds made with 158-gr coated RNFPs that I will chrono here soon. :idea:
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby Sevens » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:10 pm

I would otherwise be concerned about lead or coating stripping off or ending up plugging a gas port, but I'm sure there are folks who know how to handle that scenario (I'm not doing much with gas-op guns).

The 77/357 had developed a reputation for preferring heavier bullets over lighter ones (with regards to accuracy) so I just jumped ahead in the game and began my adventure with 180's. So far, they're fantastic! And they make a metal plate swing nicely and CLANG loudly.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby willbird » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:57 am

Sevens wrote:I would otherwise be concerned about lead or coating stripping off or ending up plugging a gas port, but I'm sure there are folks who know how to handle that scenario (I'm not doing much with gas-op guns).

The 77/357 had developed a reputation for preferring heavier bullets over lighter ones (with regards to accuracy) so I just jumped ahead in the game and began my adventure with 180's. So far, they're fantastic! And they make a metal plate swing nicely and CLANG loudly.


Not a super big deal on and AR.....one would just replace the gas tube, maybe gas block and worst case the bolt/carrier.

SOME gun designs like the Desert Eagles there are less accessible internal passages that get blocked with lead.

One can capture and examine the fired bullets with coatings and maybe see if any bare metal is exposed. But I seem to recall folks even seeing some issues with Berrys bullets which have a very thin copper plating ??
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby Morne » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:39 am

***CHRONY DATA***

.500 S&W Magnum 335-gr CPHP, WLR, Ramshot Enforcer Powder, 2.084-2.096" COAL
S&W 500 with 6.5" barrel
38.3-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1270 fps - ES = 204
40.0-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1344 fps - ES = 142
41.5-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1312 fps - ES = 176
43.0-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1406 fps - ES = 104
44.5-gr powder - AVERAGE = 1420 fps - ES = 210

So...I'm rather disappointed with Ramshot Enforcer as a potential replacement for Lil' Gun with full house loads. Granted, this is the first time I've run these plated bullets to these kind of velocities but still - I expected much tighter ES. I suppose I should be happy that they at least went fast? The load data, which uses an 8.37" barrel, still calls for a lot more speed.

I actually have a 45.0-gr version of this already made up and ready to test but looking at the above I have doubts about it impressing me.
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby Sevens » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:16 am

Well, I agree that the results aren't showing consistency but unless/until I'd used Enforcer with some higher quality slugs, I wouldn't be quick to blame the powder.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby Morne » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:18 pm

Sevens wrote:Well, I agree that the results aren't showing consistency but unless/until I'd used Enforcer with some higher quality slugs, I wouldn't be quick to blame the powder.

I suppose so.

I had good success with a Ramshot Enforcer load for .44 Mag using coated bullets (nice tight ES).

My experiment with Ramshot Enforcer in .357 Mag used X-Treme CPHP and while the speed was good the ES was again loose like here with the .500 (.500 used Rainier). I have another .357 Mag recipe already to go using a heavier weight slug from X-Treme (158 vs 125 grain) so we'll see if that helps or not.
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby willbird » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:40 am

How many rounds are you firing to gather data ?? With a small round count the statistics may not be as valid. Also might be worth saving the data and charting it based on how the rounds were fired.

For example there could be a rise in velocity as the barrel warmed, or the first shot could be consistently lower than the next shots.

I have seen people quote SD figures for a 5 shot string, 5 shots is not nearly enough to calculate an SD that means anything valid. IMHO there is probably a minimum round count to calculate an ES that means much too.

Same with accuracy, 5 five shot groups is much more valid than just one single 5 shot group. Without capturing enough data "testing" may just be wasting components :-).

Practical Application #1: Evaluating Muzzle Velocities
Standard deviation is hard to estimate with precision.
When you shoot five shots, and measure something about them, you are taking a sample.
From the sample, you hope to make some estimate of what the firearm will do in the long
run, over many shots. Since you are dealing with a sample, your estimate of the long
term performance will be imperfect, though it may be precise enough to be useful.
Suppose that a reloader is unwisely carried away with getting the standard deviation of
his handloads down to nothing. He fires five shots, and chronographs each at 2960,
3002, 2982, 2976, and 2981 fps, calculates the standard deviation, 15.04 fps, and feels
very pleased that his handloads are so consistent. But are they?
It is true enough that his sample of five has a standard deviation of 15.04, but what does
that tell us about the long-term performance of his loading technique? If we repeated this
same test 100 times, using exactly the same components and methods, then about 95
times out of that 100, we would find a standard deviation between 9.77 and 35.68.
Statistically, we say that the true, long term standard deviation could easily be anywhere
in that range. So, based on a sample of five, the shooter who thinks he has a superb
standard deviation could actually have a standard deviation as high as 35.68, which is
about typical for commercial ammunition. It was just his lucky day. The five shots he
fired happened to be very close to each other, just by luck of the draw.
The reloader that does not recognize this can easily end up chasing phantoms. One day,
he shoots test shots, and is very happy with his result. The next, things seem to have
“gone to pot”, and he can’t figure out what he is doing wrong. The fact is that nothing
has necessarily changed.


https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/Pe ... f%20SD.pdf

Bill
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby willbird » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:42 am

Practical Application #3: Evaluating Change
From rule 3, changes in variation are devilishly difficult to detect.
Our handloader has, through 25 test shots, estimated that his long-term standard deviation
is actually closer to 25 fps. Our reloader carefully adjusts his reloading process, and fires
another 25 shots, with a standard deviation of 20. Obviously, a nice improvement, right?
The data don’t support that conclusion.
One of the best tests for standard deviation change is the F Testii. In this test, we look at
the ratio of the two standard deviations, squared. 25 shots in each test group is not
enough to reliably detect a 4:5 ratio of standard deviations, as we have here. Something
just shy of 100 in each of the two groups is required. Otherwise, what we think is real
change might easily be normal random variation.
As a rule of thumb, 22 data in each group is needed to detect a 1:2 ratio between two
standard deviations, about 35 data in each group are required for a 2:3 ratio, and about 50
in each group are required for a 3:4 ratio.
In a practical example, if you think you have lowered the standard deviation of your
muzzle velocity from 20 to 15 fps, you’ll need to chronograph 100 rounds, 50 from each
batch. If the ratio of the two standard deviations comes out 3:4 or greater, you’re
justified in saying the change is real.
As if this were not a hard enough task, the F Test is notoriously sensitive to any nonnormality
in the data.
Given the twin burdens of large sample size and sensitivity to non-normality, it is much
more difficult than most people expect to tell if a change in standard deviation is real, or
if it was just our lucky day. Consequently, a lot of people perform tests, and draw
conclusions on truly insufficient data.
If you’re doing a really rigorous test, you need statistical software, such as QuikSigma™
or Minitab ®, to evaluate changes in variationiii. Statistical software won’t get you past
4
the sample size barrier, but it will help you make an intelligent evaluation of the results
you get.
Have a great day today unless you have made other plans :-).
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby willbird » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:46 am

To a degree what he is saying IMHO will also apply to range as far as sample sizes go.

But again I'n be vary wary about "non normality" especially with the random of 5-8 chambers in an individual revolver cylinder, unless you are firing the test shots from one chamber only.
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby Sevens » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:28 pm

We've discussed this in (semi-recent) discussions here before your recent return. IIRC, much of the discussion is in these similarly titled "chrono results" threads opened by Morne. Most of them involve me complaining about my stupid Chrony and it's "10 shot limit for ES/SD with absolutely no possible way to do more."
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby willbird » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:24 am

Sevens wrote:We've discussed this in (semi-recent) discussions here before your recent return. IIRC, much of the discussion is in these similarly titled "chrono results" threads opened by Morne. Most of them involve me complaining about my stupid Chrony and it's "10 shot limit for ES/SD with absolutely no possible way to do more."


You can always manually save your data. Looking at it in minitab is kind of a cool idea, I have not used it yet but have heard it discussed. Simply numbering chambers 1-x would allow saving that data point too. I have heard of folks into rim fire silhouette taking the time to test fire each individual chamber and maybe find and mark one that opens groups up. A fairly simple test sequence that could also be just fun shooting could maybe expose one or more chambers that was consistently non normal. And if the revolver happens to be one that would benefit from having it's throats opened up, one might even be able to fix it :-).

Buddy had a SAA clone 45 colt that came with .450 throats...lots of those out there. My Redhawk 44 magnum has *gasp* .433 throats...no fixing that except make a 45 colt out of it, or cast .433 bullets which I do :-).

Bill
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby Sevens » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:33 pm

No, there is no shortcut or valid excuse that addresses my complaints. The chrony comes on-board with more mathematical ability than Apollo 11 had but requires you to access it with three single-click push buttons. And the true formula for SD would work fine if you literally plugged EACH AND EVERY SHOT in to a spreadsheet, but it's ludicrous to suggest that anyone should do that labor, the Chrony is easily capable but specifically programmed in such a way as to not allow it.

The Chrony does well at measuring the speed of slugs you throw over it and it packs nicely compact. I also got a chuckle when the packing list called it "Chrony Master Beta" (hell yeah, you called it) but this unit otherwise SUCKS. It's a killer machine for maybe 1992 but it will be sweet relief when I shoot it, by "accident."
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: .500 S&W Magnum Chrony Data

Postby willbird » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:48 am

Sevens wrote:No, there is no shortcut or valid excuse that addresses my complaints. The chrony comes on-board with more mathematical ability than Apollo 11 had but requires you to access it with three single-click push buttons. And the true formula for SD would work fine if you literally plugged EACH AND EVERY SHOT in to a spreadsheet, but it's ludicrous to suggest that anyone should do that labor, the Chrony is easily capable but specifically programmed in such a way as to not allow it.

The Chrony does well at measuring the speed of slugs you throw over it and it packs nicely compact. I also got a chuckle when the packing list called it "Chrony Master Beta" (hell yeah, you called it) but this unit otherwise SUCKS. It's a killer machine for maybe 1992 but it will be sweet relief when I shoot it, by "accident."


I never cared for the Chrony....I am all Oehler :-). Next upgrade will be Doppler radar.

http://a.co/0f0tMlI

I think I paid around $300 and change for the Oehler in the 1990's, replaced the printer myself with a printer from a calculator bought at Walmart....the radar setup is roughly the same price considering inflation.

Bill
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