Carry with no round chambered.

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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Carry with no round chambered.

Postby Kenosis » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:28 pm

Or "Israeli style".

As a recently established resident of Ohio I do not yet have a permit to carry concealed. It's in the works, but I have not received the permit itself.

Since the law only allows a non-licencee to carry openly, I have to unload every time I enter my car. It has become my habit, upon parking, to open the trunk and retrieve my magazine which is then slid into my handgun without racking the slide (I do not want to alarm folks in the parking-lot). Before I re-enter my car, I place any groceries within the trunk and also remove my gun's magazine and place it in the trunk.

I OC my gun, as the law requires, with an empty chamber so as not to alarm anyone in the parking-lot. I train the racking of the slide as part of my draw; both two handed and single-handed.

For information of this style of carry please see:
http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/ ... r-why.html

Your opinions are welcome :)
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby ArmedAviator » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:49 pm

It reduces the risk of a negligent discharge with all of that loading and unloading and it also reduces bullet set-back becoming an issue.

You seem to train to overcome the problem as required and you are awaiting the license.

What more can we possibly recommend? Thank you for good citizenship and welcome to Ohio.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:08 pm

And when you only have one hand with which to pull that handgun...

Carry how you want, but I have open carried since the late 80's. My choice is to have a round chambered. I do not care what the sheep around me think. I'm not doing this for them.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:12 pm

I'm sure you've seen the "many" discussions pertaining to the subject of carrying with a round in the chamber verses carrying with an empty chamber. If one's counting, there's an over whelming number of those who carry WITH a loaded chamber....hmm...wonder why!

I've no where near carried as many years as MWSY, so I think he knows what he's talking about.

The point is, why are you carrying in the first place, self-defense,right?

Why would you want to "handicap" yourself if your life is in danger.

What your doing is allowing others to dictate how well you can defend yourself or how successful you may be at doing so.

For one thing, your carrying openly anyway, for the time being, and if that isn't making the sheep run for cover.....and it seldom , if ever does, chambering a round isn't going to rattle them either, and if it does, so be it, don't let it bother you.....it wouldn't me, anymore than the carrying of a gun openly does.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby Aesinsp » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:13 pm

Got to love MYSY's honesty.
I actually carried concealed with an empty chamber for a short while initially until I came to the conclusion that with training/confidence, I wasn't going to have an ND (if I lived by the rules of gun safety) and that split second became more valuable to me than 'feeling warm & fuzzy' over having to rack the slide in a situation I might not have control over.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:34 pm

Kenosis wrote:...
For information of this style of carry please see:
http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/ ... r-why.html
...


This is what that link takes me to:

Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.


Looks like your computer autocorrected and capitalized "israeli". Some web servers are case-sensitive and that probably broke the link.

This one may work better:

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/ ... r-why.html
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:01 am

After finally getting a chance to read the blog, it amazes me that the author, who holds a Ph.D. in Criminal Justice, didn't point out his own catch-22.

On one hand he claims that Condition 3 carry is great for the untrained, while in the other hand he suggests the Condition 3 is great because it adds less than .5 seconds to your draw...and claims that is slow.

If you are skilled enough to draw, rack the slide and get on target just as fast as if you started with a loaded chamber, you are probably skilled enough to not have a negligent discharge.

By the same token, if you do not have the training and discipline to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire, you probably don't have the training to draw, rack the slide and get on target just as fast as if the chamber had been loaded.

He drops the name of Masaad Ayoob and sets up one specific scenario where even Mas agrees that he would carry with a empty chamber...if he had to stuff a Glock into his waistband sans holster.

Wow.

With conflicting statements like, "C3 carry recognizes that the danger to the carrier is as great as or greater from negligent discharge than actual attack by a criminal" and "From my position, I tend to suggest chamber loaded carry as the normal and standard default position...", I have to conclude that the "thinking" done by this author is not "critical thinking".

Is there a time and place for empty-chamber carry? Maybe, but I don't know what it is unless your employer or state has a policy or law that requires such a thing.

Here is a video made by YouTube personality LimaTunes (Melody Lauer) regarding this very topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY

And a video from A.S.P. that compiles several examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVPiic-ELoM
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby gaptrick » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:36 am

I see his point if in and out of the car frequently. The constant feeding and burping the chamber is troublesome and reduces the law of averages for a ND. And if he racks and stacks its tougher yet. Its a chore. its bad enough to have to drop the mag... silly law. I see no point in scaring grannies panties off if she were to see you at the trunk racking one in the tube.

Get the license and this goes away.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby WY_Not » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:58 am

Also if for no other reason, the constant chambering of a round will cause the bullet to seat deeper and deeper in the case. Seat it too deeply and things might get interesting when you fire that round. So, either carry chambered and leave it chambered or do as the OP does and don't chamber till needed.

gaptrick wrote:I see his point if in and out of the car frequently. The constant feeding and burping the chamber is troublesome and reduces the law of averages for a ND. And if he racks and stacks its tougher yet. Its a chore. its bad enough to have to drop the mag... silly law. I see no point in scaring grannies panties off if she were to see you at the trunk racking one in the tube.

Get the license and this goes away.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:12 pm

That blog post is a great example of a strawman - he doesn't cite any specific arguments by proponents of "C1" carry he just claims what the arguments against C3 carry and then rebuts them.

A little more digging turned up the fact that a full year earlier he read & replied to an article criticizing empty chamber carry (http://pistol-training.com/archives/219#comment-2715) but failed to address some of the concerns raised. Here's a significant one:
One thing that the Israeli method must always involve, however, is the necessity of making the transition from cycling the slide with the support hand to achieving a good, two-handed grip on the gun for the shot. The standard method allowed me to achieve a proper supported grip very early in the process. During the initial 20 trials of each method, I had no misses with the standard method and five with the Israeli technique. Again, of course, more practice with the Israeli method would help eliminate the accuracy problem, but it’s obviously still a factor to consider and cope with.


Another issue I see with that blog is he makes claims to support his position but doesn't justify them. Take this one:
Chamber empty carry was the dominant method of carry for military, police, and civilians for most of the 20th Century.

Source? Nope. Police officers carried revolvers for the majority of the 20th C. NYC PD (the largest police dept. in the country - source) didn't start to switch from revolvers until 1993 (source). So unless the author has some evidence that 20th C. police officers carried revolvers with an empty chamber, his claim is bogus. It sure does help to support his argument though.


If the above sounds like I'm beating up on empty chamber carry, I'm not. I probably support it more broadly than a lot of people on the board. I don't think it's generally a good choice for carrying a handgun in public for self-defense, but even then there are/could be exceptions. For a firearm kept only for home defense I think the practice is more justifiable.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby Kenosis » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:06 pm

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:And when you only have one hand with which to pull that handgun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMsAvWOEj-k

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I do not care what the sheep around me think.

I guess, to some extent at least...I do.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby Kenosis » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:12 pm

3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:What your doing is allowing others to dictate how well you can defend yourself or how successful you may be at doing so.

I do that anyway. My work is a posted victim disarmament zone, so I don't carry at work. I don't carry onto my children's school grounds, either.

I also don't illegally modify my handgun to fire 2 rounds with 1 trigger pull, even-though that would be a great tool to have.

I've already crossed that bridge. Everyone who abides by the law has crossed that bridge. Given that I'm already willing to disarm in certain places, I feel that carrying with an empty chamber for the sake of not getting the cops called on me (and possibly banned from a business's property which I need to regularly visit) is nothing.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby Michael » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:53 pm

There is no logical or rational reason to not carry with a round in the chamber.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby TSiWRX » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:34 am

Kenosis wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:And when you only have one hand with which to pull that handgun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMsAvWOEj-k


Single-handed manipulations, under-stress, are considerably less certain than their two-handed counterparts.

Anyone who has seriously trained/practiced single-handed manipulations or have been required to execute them under pressure as a part of a training or competition scenario will be able to confirm this observation, as well as the fact that in some cases, not only does the intended manipulation fail to be properly executed, but that this primary failure induces a further stoppage that can potentially be catastrophic.

Similarly, being able to execute the necessary techniques static is one thing; being pressured by a live Force-on-Force actor or, worse-yet, physical combatives training partner - or even just the beep of the shot timer - all while dynamically moving can make such actions very challenging, even for those who are well-practiced.

Additionally, not only should these techniques be practiced dry/safe with dummy-rounds, they also need to (where context allows, of-course: i.e. live-fire would not mix well with Force-on-Force!) be practiced using one's selected defensive ammo. Towards this consideration, we're reminded that not all reciprocating-slide autopistols respond to all manipulations equally: the Kahr PM9/CM9 are known for being difficult to chamber via either the "overhand powerstroke" or the "Y-pinch," mis-feeding that top round, whereas dropping the slide via the slide-stop/release virtually insures proper chambering - such a weapon would thus be ill-suited for "Condition 3 carry."

Finally, be sure you practice in-context of your daily life. Here in NE-Ohio, a few days'/weeks' worth of summer's worst heat and humidity alternates with seemingly the same period of frostbite-inducing cold in the winter. There have been several past threads regarding the use of gloves and how that may change one's interactions with the gun during manipulations, but the same goes for sweaty fingers and palms (or wet from just haivng grabbed that cold water bottle that's got condensation all over it) in the summer. With the latter, adric22 of DefensiveCarry.com wrote the following:

adric22 of DefensiveCarry.com wrote:As most know, I've been involved in many arguments on here about chambered vs. unchambered. There have been many valid points brought up in the past which suggest chambering may be the right way to go. But so far have not been sufficient to change my mind. However, something happened today which nobody has ever mentioned and I had never thought of before. My wife and I went to the range today and I decided to shoot my little Taurus TCP 738. I actually rarely shoot that gun, because it is not fun to shoot. But with the hot weather lately, I've been carrying it more and more because it is much easier to conceal when wearing shorts and a t-shirt. So I figured if I carry this thing, I should put some rounds through it. Well, as many know it has been quite hot around here lately. It was 102 degrees outside today. When I first got into the range, I was still sweating from being outside. I was unable to chamber a round in that TCP because the slide is so small, has such a strong spring, and my hands were sweaty. My hand would literally just slide right off the slide like it was coated in vaseline or something. My wife tried and also was unable to do it. After I rubbed my hands on my shorts to dry them off a bit, I was finally able to do it. I could just see myself trying to chamber a round with sweaty hands while the BG is trying to kill me.


Personally, I don't care if someone wants to carry with a round in the chamber or without - that's their decision to make, and it's up to them to justify it in their minds. However, regardless of that justification, one must understand the limitations and compromises that their chosen method demands, and realistically examine such limitations and practice - realistically - to overcome them.

That all said:

Kenosis, I think that your unique situation puts forward valid and reasonable arguments for not carrying chambered.

One thing that I would ask for you to consider, though, is whether if you can (and be willing to) chamber the weapon discretely - draw the slide back and ease it forward, making sure that the slide reaches battery by subsequently giving the rear of it a firm tap forward.

This still will not obviate the need to rotate out the chambered rounds, however, as even with less force imparted to the action, the possibility of bullet setback cannot be ignored. Depending on how many times you must disarm/re-arm per day, the need to set aside that chambered round may span anywhere from being simply a good and steady supply of practice-use defensive rounds to being completely non-viable due to cost.
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Re: Carry with no round chambered.

Postby Kenosis » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:04 pm

Unfortunately I'm one of the victims of DefenciveCarry's new Canadian owners and am no longer allowed to participate on that site despite a clean history; simply outright banned one day. I suspect DC will become less and less of an informational hub.
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