Age Old Question

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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Age Old Question

Postby Funk49 » Thu May 05, 2016 5:51 pm

A privately owned business does NOT post the "No Firearms Allowed" sticker at their entrances.
However, on their website, they DO have a line that states their property is a GFZ.....Is it up to me,to search every businesses website to find out their rules?
Shouldn't they post the sticker to be legal?
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Re: Age Old Question

Postby JediSkipdogg » Thu May 05, 2016 5:59 pm

The rule is one must knowingly violate the sign. Now, knowingly does not necessarily mean you must have known but according to Ohio...

A person acts knowingly, regardless of purpose, when the person is aware that the person's conduct will probably cause a certain result or will probably be of a certain nature. A person has knowledge of circumstances when the person is aware that such circumstances probably exist. When knowledge of the existence of a particular fact is an element of an offense, such knowledge is established if a person subjectively believes that there is a high probability of its existence and fails to make inquiry or acts with a conscious purpose to avoid learning the fact.

So, if you bought ticket online to go to a zoo, and on the front page of their website was some giant disclaimer that says "Gun Free Zone" then sure, a conviction may win. However, I think most would not say a person would act knowingly for a standard business. Also, the big key for court is the prosecution must prove that you knew or should have known. That is why the general rule of thumb for trespass is a warning first, either by law enforcement or a certified letter sent to you. Those two items can hold up in court that you should have known.
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Re: Age Old Question

Postby Funk49 » Thu May 05, 2016 6:07 pm

Yes, I understand your response.....but....let's say...I walk up to the ticket booth to buy tickets for the zoo,amusement park,swimming pool,etc. No GFZ signs are visible anywhere near
the entrance. Yet, on their website, in the FAQ questions area, they state that no firearms are allowed. You don't visit their website before you buy your tickets.
Are you violating their rules or not?
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Re: Age Old Question

Postby BobK » Thu May 05, 2016 7:45 pm

In my opinion, a website posting does not meet the requirement that a sign must be posted conspicuously.

Personally, I would carry under such circumstances without a moment's hesitation.
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Re: Age Old Question

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu May 05, 2016 7:56 pm

The carry of firearms in Ohio is legal.

With a CHL, you may carry handguns in a concealed manner.

By LAW, a private employer MAY post a CPZ sign.

It is therefore "reasonable", to ME, to believe that a business without a CPZ sign allows me to carry my concealed handgun onto their property.

Because I know what THEY need to do to keep me out, I have no duty to research the issue further.
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Re: Age Old Question

Postby SMMAssociates » Thu May 05, 2016 9:18 pm

MWSY:

Slightly off topic, but a House of Worship does not have to post. It's a CPZ regardless, unless they post "Concealed Carry is OK" or something to that effect, or you have a (preferably written) note to that effect.

Until the law was changed in 2011, Class D was even goofier. The Class D facility was not required to post. We were supposed to know!

A private CPZ doesn't really have to post, but they do need to notify you, preferably before you get inside. IMHO, a web site doesn't count.

(Hm.... I wonder if an ad on this web site would count? :D )

I know I've posted this before, but I took my wife to a Doctor's office a while back. Multi-tenant office building. No signs anywhere until we actually got into his office. One sign at the receptionists desk where you sign in, and one more back in the exam rooms area that was essentially invisible while in the waiting room. IMHO "what sign?" ought to be operative here....

The major problem with this, of course, is if you run into a Harless. You could spend some time in the Greybar until things get sorted out, and it could cost you some money.

It is always easier to make a criminal out of an honest citizen that to prosecute criminal intent.

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Re: Age Old Question

Postby schmieg » Tue May 17, 2016 10:27 pm

Funk49 wrote:Yes, I understand your response.....but....let's say...I walk up to the ticket booth to buy tickets for the zoo,amusement park,swimming pool,etc. No GFZ signs are visible anywhere near
the entrance. Yet, on their website, in the FAQ questions area, they state that no firearms are allowed. You don't visit their website before you buy your tickets.
Are you violating their rules or not?

Yes, you are violating their rules. If asked to leave, don't argue, just leave. You aren't facing a valid criminal trespass case until you are informed of the rules and refuse to leave.
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Re: Age Old Question

Postby SeanC » Wed May 18, 2016 9:25 am

Just read the statute, please.

R.C. 2923.
the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises.
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Re: Age Old Question

Postby schmieg » Wed May 18, 2016 11:17 am

SeanC wrote:Just read the statute, please.

R.C. 2923.
the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises.

But, if it's not posted, and they ask you to leave, leave or face criminal trespass charges.
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Re: Age Old Question

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Wed May 18, 2016 1:40 pm

2911.21 Criminal Trespass
...
(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;

(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.



You are OTHERWISE NOTIFIED when you read about the prohibition on their web site.


STOP LOOKING !!!!! If you stop looking, you won't see signs UNLESS they are conspicuously posted.
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