Three points from firing

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

User avatar
pirateguy191
Posts: 11009
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:06 pm
Location: 44146

Re: Three points from firing

Post by pirateguy191 »

Werz wrote:
pirateguy191 wrote:
JohnZ wrote:A loaded magazine inside the car apart from the gun is still considered a loaded gun, right? And I assume it's the same thing if you have a holstered gun that's unloaded and a full mag in your pocket.
A loaded magazine is no longer a loaded gun. With your CHL, carry any way you please. Without a CHL, the magazine may be loaded but the empty gun and mag have to be in two separate closed containers.
It would be wise to specify that this applies to handguns only. Even if you have a CHL, a loaded magazine cannot be inserted into a long gun.
Well, I typed CHL twice. Concealed HANDGUN License.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh

NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: Three points from firing

Post by Werz »

eye95 wrote:
Brian D. wrote:As I recall the Founders ended up shooting the people in charge to change THEIR minds. Well, the armed flunkies of those in charge.
Yep. You start by working within the political system. However, when in the course of human events...
Per TOS
"No abusive posts -- these include attacks against individuals, their opinions, their statements, or attacks against OFCC -- if you have a complaint against the way something is done or a decision that was stated, please raise it with a moderator. This rule is primarily for those controversial discussions where forum members tend to attack each other (what is commonly referred to as “flaming” or a “flame war). Such posts will not be tolerated once noticed by the moderators or once brought to our attention".....Djmac

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: Three points from firing

Post by Werz »

Werz wrote:
eye95 wrote:
Brian D. wrote:As I recall the Founders ended up shooting the people in charge to change THEIR minds. Well, the armed flunkies of those in charge.
Yep. You start by working within the political system. However, when in the course of human events...
Per TOS
"No abusive posts -- these include attacks against individuals, their opinions, their statements, or attacks against OFCC -- if you have a complaint against the way something is done or a decision that was stated, please raise it with a moderator. This rule is primarily for those controversial discussions where forum members tend to attack each other (what is commonly referred to as “flaming” or a “flame war). Such posts will not be tolerated once noticed by the moderators or once brought to our attention".....Djmac

Okey dokey. Let's review those terms of service:
Messages exhorting others to commit illegal acts or describing illegal acts you’ve committed or intend to commit are expressly forbidden.
'Nuff said.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
steves 50de
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 3515
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:26 pm
Location: n.e. ohio
Contact:

Re: Three points from firing

Post by steves 50de »

Brian D. wrote:As I recall the Founders ended up shooting the people in charge to change THEIR minds. Well, the armed flunkies of those in charge.
:wink:
Black Rifles Matter
User avatar
MyWifeSaidYes
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5449
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Re: Three points from firing

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

If my life were threatened, I would not hesitate to shoot the threat in the face.

That is an illegal act in the state of Ohio.

Illegal. All day. Every day. All night long.

We discuss such things all the time.

We have discussed these intentions and actual events, at length, ad nauseum.

We routinely encourage others to perform these illegal acts.

Of course, if we HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR DOING SO, we simply won't be charged and/or convicted.
MyWifeSaidYes
User avatar
DontTreadOnMe
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 1750
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:11 am
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Three points from firing

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:If my life were threatened, I would not hesitate to shoot the threat in the face.

That is an illegal act in the state of Ohio.

Illegal. All day. Every day. All night long.
That depends. If you were responsible for creating the incident, or you failed to meet a duty to retreat, then yes it would be illegal. Otherwise it's an act of legal self-defense.
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Of course, if we HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR DOING SO, we simply won't be charged and/or convicted.
No this badly mischaracterizes self-defense as an illegal act that isn't punished. That's very wrong. It is a legal justification for an act that in different circumstances would be illegal.
User avatar
MyWifeSaidYes
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5449
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Re: Three points from firing

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:If my life were threatened, I would not hesitate to shoot the threat in the face.

That is an illegal act in the state of Ohio.

Illegal. All day. Every day. All night long.
That depends. If you were responsible for creating the incident, or you failed to meet a duty to retreat, then yes it would be illegal. Otherwise it's an act of legal self-defense.
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Of course, if we HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR DOING SO, we simply won't be charged and/or convicted.
No this badly mischaracterizes self-defense as an illegal act that isn't punished. That's very wrong. It is a legal justification for an act that in different circumstances would be illegal.
Welcome to Ohio.

There is NO such thing as "legal" self-defense in Ohio, only an affirmative defense...meaning YOU must prove your innocence.

This is NOT a mischaracterization.

This is exactly how it happens in this state.

When you shoot someone, for any reason, even self-defense, you have committed aggravated assault or worse.

You have NOT committed "self-defense".

You are guilty until proven innocent.

Yes, Ohio sucks that way.

And talking about crimes we intend to commit violates the TOS. :wink:
MyWifeSaidYes
User avatar
DontTreadOnMe
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 1750
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:11 am
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Three points from firing

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:There is NO such thing as "legal" self-defense in Ohio, only an affirmative defense...meaning YOU must prove your innocence.
People who prove their innocence are, by definition, not guilty of a crime.

Advising a person to take an action whereby they are not guilty under the laws as written, therefore, is not encouraging someone to commit an illegal act. This is substantially different than advising a person to take an action which is against the law but their odds of prosecution are low.

Your argument is like saying it's illegal for a person with a CHL to carry a concealed handgun, because they have to prove that their doing so isn't against the law. Carrying a concealed handgun is against the law. The law provides exceptions whereby doing so is allowed, which (again, by definition) makes it not against the law in those cases.

The fact that the self-defense exception is in a different statute vs. a different sub-section doesn't change the circular logic you're using.
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5751
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: Three points from firing

Post by schmieg »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:There is NO such thing as "legal" self-defense in Ohio, only an affirmative defense...meaning YOU must prove your innocence.
People who prove their innocence are, by definition, not guilty of a crime.

Advising a person to take an action whereby they are not guilty under the laws as written, therefore, is not encouraging someone to commit an illegal act. This is substantially different than advising a person to take an action which is against the law but their odds of prosecution are low.

Your argument is like saying it's illegal for a person with a CHL to carry a concealed handgun, because they have to prove that their doing so isn't against the law. Carrying a concealed handgun is against the law. The law provides exceptions whereby doing so is allowed, which (again, by definition) makes it not against the law in those cases.

The fact that the self-defense exception is in a different statute vs. a different sub-section doesn't change the circular logic you're using.
The point that MWSY is making is that in other states, the prosecutor has to prove that you shot the person in the face while not defending yourself from serious bodily harm or death. In Ohio, he just has to prove that you shot the person in the face (well, a bit more depending on the elements of the specific charges you face). You, then, have the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence, that the shoot was in self defense and you must prove all of the elements of self defense. Ohio is different from everywhere else in that regard.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
User avatar
MyWifeSaidYes
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5449
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
Location: Central Ohio
Contact:

Re: Three points from firing

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Everywhere.
MyWifeSaidYes
eye95
*** Banned ***
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: Three points from firing

Post by eye95 »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Everywhere.
If, by "Everywhere," you mean that all States put the burden of proof for self-defense on the defendant, I think you are wrong.

Didn't we learn in the Zimmerman case that, in Florida, the burden is placed very specifically and completely on the prosecution to prove it was NOT self-defense in order to convict?
Be a Madisonian.

It finally happened. I have now been accused on OFCC of both being a cop-hater and then a cop-lover! Therefore, anyone making either accusation must not be paying attention.
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Re: Three points from firing

Post by Brian D. »

schmieg wrote:You, then, have the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence, that the shoot was in self defense and you must prove all of the elements of self defense. Ohio is different from everywhere else in that regard.
This quote from Schmieg is what MyWifeSaidYes was referring to when he stated "everywhere", I'm pretty sure. Sure enough to bet the house.

I am gonna do like Sonny Pruitt now and...read another thread.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5751
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: Three points from firing

Post by schmieg »

eye95 wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Everywhere.
If, by "Everywhere," you mean that all States put the burden of proof for self-defense on the defendant, I think you are wrong.

Didn't we learn in the Zimmerman case that, in Florida, the burden is placed very specifically and completely on the prosecution to prove it was NOT self-defense in order to convict?
MWSY was referring to my saying Ohio differed from EVERYWHERE else, so he is correct.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
eye95
*** Banned ***
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: Three points from firing

Post by eye95 »

Ah.

Thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood.
Be a Madisonian.

It finally happened. I have now been accused on OFCC of both being a cop-hater and then a cop-lover! Therefore, anyone making either accusation must not be paying attention.
Post Reply