When did it happen?

[Chuck]

We are constantly being told that if we exercise our rights we will lose them, with anyone who dares to exercise them in a way that someone else doesn't like being compared to the Open Carry Texas crowd.
This insult doesn't necessarily involve Open Carrying, but Open Carrying is always in the insult.
We get it. You don't like Open Carry, and you don't like open carriers, and some of you follow us around the internets to insult every post we make.
You would rather we shut up, sit down, and hide our guns (better yet, not even carry them) and get out of gun rights activism entirely

My question to you is, when did it happen?
When did open carriers EVER make things worse for the average gun owner then they already were?

California doesn't count
The few short years CA allowed OC of unloaded guns only was a joke, those people were not allowed to carry for self defense they were only allowed to show their gun .

So when did it happen?
When did lawful open carriers ever cause a bad law to be passed?

[Brian D.]

Chuck, the only sort of thing I'm (sort of) aware of in Ohio is hearing accounts of someone's OC leading to an individual business posting against ALL carry. I know that's not what you asked.

[Bama.45]

Personally I haven't heard of open carriers causing any real harm... I have no problem with open carrying as long as it isnt done stupidly.. And I support it on public grounds and in front of buildings that our tax dollars pay for... I don't support open carry being used as a bully tactic on private property though,whether its open to the public or not.

[Mustang380gal]

Every time this subject is tried, it ends up a massive fight. Why are you even starting this?

It had better stay civil, or it will be done.

[JustaShooter]

Texas.

Were it not for the actions of Open Carry Tarrant County I am convinced Texas would be on the verge of unlicensed open carry, rather than the licensed open carry they are now likely to get.

Our Texas transplant is convinced of it from what I've read here, as are my relatives in Texas. Certainly not provable, I'll grant, but there is certainly evidence to indicate it.

And for the record, I am not anti-OC. I am pro OC, and do OC, more than I CC (except in winter). I am anti-stupid, and what they did in Texas was just stupid (and politically tone-deaf).

[Chuck]

Every time this subject is tried, it ends up a massive fight. Why are you even starting this?

It had better stay civil, or it will be done.

Yes Ma'am
I will even help with the moderation if you like.
I want this to be civil

[MyWifeSaidYes]

[Chuck]

Texas.

Were it not for the actions of Open Carry Tarrant County I am convinced Texas would be on the verge of unlicensed open carry, rather than the licensed open carry they are now likely to get.

Our Texas transplant is convinced of it from what I've read here, as are my relatives in Texas. Certainly not provable, I'll grant, but there is certainly evidence to indicate it.

And for the record, I am not anti-OC. I am pro OC, and do OC, more than I CC (except in winter). I am anti-stupid, and what they did in Texas was just stupid (and politically tone-deaf).

What was their excuse two years ago?
Four years ago?
Six, eight ten?

Texas has a long history of being anti open carry and when they finally, FINALLY! get licensed open carry, the open carry groups are somehow to blame for not getting the whole hog at once.
Seriously, if they stopped anything, why wasn't it already happening before they ever came along?

[Chuck]

Thank you,,,,

[DontTreadOnMe]

When did open carriers EVER make things worse for the average gun owner then they already were?

Lots of times. Starbucks. Chipotle. Target. OC Tarrant County (not all OC Texas, they've improved, but definitely the OC Tarrant County group). More recently, in MI both Ann Arbor and Clio school districts banned guns in response to open carriers.

It would be wrong to say OC is always wrong or always leads to negative consequences, but it would also be wrong to say that never happens either. Best analogy I heard is that exercising your rights is like exercising your body, yes it's important but if you do it wrong you can screw things up and set yourself back.

[BobK]

Texas.
Were it not for the actions of Open Carry Tarrant County I am convinced Texas would be on the verge of unlicensed open carry, rather than the licensed open carry they are now likely to get.

Texas has a long history of being anti open carry and when they finally, FINALLY! get licensed open carry, the open carry groups are somehow to blame for not getting the whole hog at once.
Seriously, if they stopped anything, why wasn't it already happening before they ever came along?

Well, I am fine with open carry. In fact, I remember joining you on the sidewalk in front of the Columbus Dispatch while I open carried and protested the Dispatch's stupidity.

However, the issue is not open carry, the issue is rude, obstructive, obnoxious and unproductive behavior.

Unlike the Open Carry idjits in Texas, I have never talked a House Representative into sponsoring a bill. Then, when the bill did not move out of committee fast enough, flood the Facebook page of the our own pro-open carry bill's sponsor with hateful insults and threats. The Facebook posts were so venomous that anyone with half an understanding of politics was simply dumbfounded.

Unlike the Open Carry idjits in Texas, I did not barge into the office of the vice chairman of the committee that was responsible for my bill, and threaten him with hanging as a traitor. I did not create a situation that was so threatening the entire House & Senate subsequently voted for additional security measures. I never threatened Senate and House staff members. I never threatened the families of elected officials.

Unlike the Open Carry idjits in Texas, I did not threaten, lie, and otherwise alienate all natural allies like the Texas State Rifle Association. Personally, I believe the real enemies are the Bloomberg's of the world, but woe be to anyone who simply asks questions of the Open Carry groups in Texas. The are turned upon and attacked with viciousness.

But don't believe me. Listen to what the Texas legislature has to say about this. Rep. Phillips is the chairman of the Homeland Security & Public Safety house committee, which had control of the open carry bills (and other firearm bills) this session. He was also the author of HB 910, the licensed open carry bill which passed the House. Conversely, Rep. Stickland was enlisted by the Open Carry Texas crowd to author HB 195, which was the unlicensed open carry bill that never received a committee hearing.

So here is an 1 min 26 sec audio clip where Stickland first asks Philips if he will let his constitutional carry bill have a committee hearing. Phillips response at 46 seconds is very direct and telling:

http://traffic.libsyn.com/opencarryrepo ... kland1.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, for the people who are all excited about wanting to pass open carry in Texas, please understand that all the polling results I have seen have shown it was not at the top of the wish list for most Texans. In previous sessions, there were many other bills passed that had a greater impact on most Texans, such as the Motorist Protection Act (allowing everyone to have loaded firearms in a vehicle), Employer Parking lot bills, school parking lot bills, etc. Open Carry just never floated top the top of the list of good bills to pass.

In fact, during this session, I would have far preferred to see HB 308, which basically would have let a CHL carry almost anywhere a police officer can carry (including schools, universities, police stations, ....) I would have also preferred seeing HB 937 pass allowing campus carry inside campus buildings and dorms. Both of those bills would have expanded the places people can carry instead of just the manner in which they carry, and thus matter more to me that open carry.

[BobK]

Just so people realize that the Texas Legislature wasn't sitting around and asking someone to pass Open Carry, here is a brief summary of pro-firearm bills passed and signed into law in recent years. (I guarantee you that the Ohio Legislature is nowhere close to this kind of record.)


2005 Legislative Session

HB225 (Driver) - 5 year renewal on CHL
HB322 (Hupp) - CHL changes for military
HB685 (Rose) - Certain military exempted from range requirement of CHL
HB823 (Keel) - Gun in car without CHL
HB1038 (Isett) - Reduction of certain CHL fees

2007 Bill Status Report

HB233 (Ritter D-A) Relating to a waiver of concealed handgun license fees for certain members and veterans of the military. Waives all CHL fees for active and honorably discharged military.

HB308 (Kuempel) Relating to the use of laser sighting devices by hunters who are legally blind.

HB991 (Rose D-A+) Relating to the confidentiality of certain records maintained by the Department of Public Safety regarding persons licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

HB1815 (Isett A+) Relating to the prosecution of certain offenses that involve carrying weapons on a person's property or in a person's vehicle. Motorist Protection Act Passed, effective 9/1/07.

HB2112 (Patrick) Relating to banning handguns and certain other weapons from parking areas associated with schools or educational institutions; providing criminal penalties. Amended to remove all restrictions on having guns on school property and now only prohibits using or threatening to use a firearm unlawfully on school grounds or busses.

HB2300 (Paxton) Relating to the carrying of weapons by certain judges and justices and district and county attorneys. Passed, effective 6/15/07.

SB112 (Carona R-A) Relating to the confiscation of firearms and ammunition during a state of disaster. (Emergency Powers & Anti-Confiscation Bill) This bill would prevent a New Orleans-style gun confiscation during an emergency.

SB322 (Deuell R-A+) Relating to possession of firearms and ammunition in certain foster homes. This bill prohibits governmental agencies from prohibiting the possession of any guns or ammunition in a foster home.

SB378 (Wentworth R-A+) Relating to the use of force or deadly force in defense of a person. Castle Doctrine. Passed, effective 9/1/07!!

SB534 (Hegar R-A+) Relating to certain rights and liabilities of an employer regarding an employee's access to a concealed handgun. Employer parking Lots Southwest Airlines-type of notification, with additional job protection. Died on House General Calendar - not reached before session ended.

SB535 (Hegar R-A+) Relating to the possession or shooting of a handgun on the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority by a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun. Legalized carrying on LCRA property by CHL's. LCRA currently allows CHL's to carry, but there is a conflict. This is a clean-up bill. Passed, effective 9/1/07.

SB1709 (Hegar) Relating to procedures to limit the carrying of handguns by persons other than peace officers on certain premises used for law enforcement. Good bill. This is a companion bill to HB3635; please see comments on HB3635. Passed, effective 9/1/07.

2009 Bill Status Report

Bill No.: HB968 Relating to the use of crossbows for hunting.

Bill No.: HB1020 Relating to the use, exhibition, or possession of a firearm by public school students participating in certain school-sponsored programs and activities sponsored or supported by the Parks and Wildlife Department. This bill is designed to protect students from expulsion when participating in certain shooting sports.

Bill No.: HB2664 This bill would make the lack of a 51% sign a defense to prosecution, of a CHL unknowingly enter a 51% location.

Bill No.: HB4456 Relating to the definition of a switchblade knife for purposes of the offense of prohibited weapons. This bill clarifies the definition of switchblade knife and is prompted by the recent appellate court decision that absurdly expanded the definition of a switchblade knife.

Bill No.: SB1188 Relating to the interstate purchase of certain firearms. This bill will prevent the BATFE from incorrectly denying the purchase of a long gun in a state that is not contiguous with Texas.

Bill No.: SB1236 Relating to admonishments given to a person charged with a misdemeanor. This bill requires a defendant be notified of the effect of a guilty plea, or a conviction, for family violence on their right to possess firearms and ammo. This is a good bill.

2011 Bill Status Report

HB25 - By Guillen: Exempts watercraft from the general prohibitions on carrying a handgun in Texas Penal Code §46.02.

HB242 - By Craddick (R A): Requires law enforcement agencies to issue retired credentials to honorably retired officers.

HB2127 - By Geren: A committee substitute for this bill will prohibit the regulation of shooting on tracts of land of at least 100 ac even if they were annexed prior to Sept. 1, 1981.

HB2560 - By Sheffield, Driver, Legler: This bill bar governmental agencies from prohibiting a foster parent who has a CHL from carrying a concealed handgun while a foster child is in the car.

SB321 - By Hegar: Prohibits employers from prohibiting employees from storing legally possessed firearms in the employees' locked vehicles in employers' parking lots.

SB766 - By Estes: This is a much needed sport shooting range protection bill that makes it much harder to file frivolous lawsuits.

2013 Bill Status Report

HB47 (Flynn, R, A+): Relating to a handgun proficiency course that is taken to obtain or renew a concealed handgun license.
Impact: Reduces the initial CHL class from minimum 10 hours to 4 hours.

HB48 (Flynn, R, A+): Relating to the procedure under which a person may renew a license to carry a concealed handgun.
Impact: 1) Removes the requirement to take a renewal course to renew a CHL; 2) Allows a person to continue to carry a handgun in Texas on an expired CHL, if a) they timely filed the required renewal documents; b) paid the renewal fee; and c) have not been notified by DPS that the renewal application was denied.

HB333 (Guillen): Relating to requiring notice of a hotel's firearms policy; providing a civil penalty.
Impact: Requires hotels wishing to ban firearms from their property to meet certain notice requirements when a guest books reservation either online or by phone.

HB485 (David, Sarah): Relating to the amount of the fee paid by certain peace officers and veterans of the United States armed forces for a license to carry a concealed handgun.
Impact: Reduces the CHL fee for new and renewal licenses to $25 for veterans discharged more than one year prior to application.


HB698 (Springer, R): Relating to the use of digital or electronic fingerprinting for an application for a license to carry a concealed handgun. Limits the DPS requirement for CHL applicants to use digital fingerprints only if a facility to "roll" digital prints is available no more than 25 miles from the applicant's residence.


HB 1077 (Kleinschmidt, R, A+): Relating to the transportation and storage of firearms and ammunition in private vehicles on the campuses of institutions of higher education. A bill that essentially extends the so-called "employer parking lot bill" to colleges and universities and applies to both employees and students. That is, they cannot be disciplined, fired, or expelled for having firearms in their locked vehicles.


HB 1349 (Larson, R): Relating to information that may be requested by the Department of Public Safety from a person applying for or renewing a concealed handgun license. Prohibits the Tex. Dept. of Public Safety from requiring the disclosure of an applicant for a Texas Concealed Handgun License to provide their social security number.

HB1421 (Perry): Relating to the disposition of certain seized weapons. Provides a judge the option to order firearms confiscated from criminal defendants or suspects sold at auction by an FFL, rather than requiring them to be destroyed for forfeited to a law enforcement agency.


HB 3142 (Bell, R): Relating to handguns used to demonstrate proficiency in handgun use for purposes of obtaining a concealed handgun license. Repeals the SA and NSA categories for handguns in the CHL statute.

SB17 (Patrick, R, A): Relating to the training in school safety of certain employees of a school district or an open-enrollment charter school authorized to carry a concealed handgun on school premises.
Impact: Establishes a voluntary DPS run training program for school employees who hold a CHL. It does not limit a school's authority to allow any person to carry a firearm on the school "premises."

SB164 (Van de Putte): Relating to the issuance to veterans of specially marked licenses to carry a concealed handgun and specially marked personal identification certificates. Allows veterans to have "Veteran" imprinted on their CHL and other ID.

SB299 (Estes, R, A+): Relating to the unintentional display of a weapon by a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun. Clarifies that unintentional or accidental exposure of a handgun by a person holding a Texas Concealed Handgun License (or a recognized license from another state) is not an offense.

SB864 (Campbell, R, A): Relating to a handgun proficiency course that is taken to obtain or renew a concealed handgun license. Reduces the CHL class from 10 to 15 hours to 4 to 6 hours.

SB987 (Hegar, R, A+) Relating to requiring the attorney general to obtain an injunction against a municipality or county that adopts prohibited regulations regarding firearms, ammunition, or firearm supplies. Requires the Texas Attorney General to seek a permanent or temporary injunction against any county seeking to regulate sport shooting ranges in violation of the Texas range protection laws.

SB 1189 (Huffman, R): Relating to the disposition of certain firearms seized by a law enforcement agency. Establishes a procedure for gun owners or their designee to recover firearms seized from someone taken into custody on an emergency mental health warrant.

SB 1400 (Estes, R): Relating to the municipal and county regulation of air guns. Prohibits cities from regulating the discharge of air guns on certain property, including private property if pellet traps are used. Also has other reasonable requirements. Prohibits counties from regulating the discharge of air guns except on specific county property.

SB 1907 (Hegar, R, A+): Relating to the transportation and storage of firearms and ammunition in private vehicles on the campuses of institutions of higher education. Prohibits public and private colleges and universities from adopting policies preventing persons lawfully possessing firearms from storing them in their locked vehicles anywhere on campus. The Bill essentially expands the employer parking lot bill passed in 2011 to colleges and universities.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Wow. I stayed quiet for almost 4 hours.

Chuck wanted to know:

...When did open carriers EVER make things worse for the average gun owner then they already were?...
...When did lawful open carriers ever cause a bad law to be passed?

The way the OCT {descriptor that violates TOS}, I mean, idjits acted IN THE CONGRESSIONAL OFFICES was simply reprehensible.

But THAT wasn't open carry (handgun OR long gun). It was idjits directly bad mouthing, yelling at and threatening their congressmen.

Starbucks, Chipotle and Target?? Moms Demand Action campaigned heavily against those companies. It wasn't the open carriers. The stores made NO changes to their policies until they were attacked by the MDA. And you should check each company's current policy on firearms carried by customers.

As for the Ann Arbor and Clio school districts? Their new policies violate Michigan state law. A lawsuit will be along soon, I'm sure.

Now...where's that duct tape...

[Chuck]

here is a brief summary of pro-firearm bills passed and signed into law in recent years

HB47 (Flynn, R, A+): Relating to a handgun proficiency course that is taken to obtain or renew a concealed handgun license.
Impact: Reduces the initial CHL class from minimum 10 hours to 4 hours.

SB864 (Campbell, R, A): Relating to a handgun proficiency course that is taken to obtain or renew a concealed handgun license. Reduces the CHL class from 10 to 15 hours to 4 to 6 hours.

How long does the class take in Texas?

Are you saying that Both of these bills passed into law?

[BobK]

HB47 (Flynn, R, A+): Relating to a handgun proficiency course that is taken to obtain or renew a concealed handgun license.
Impact: Reduces the initial CHL class from minimum 10 hours to 4 hours.

SB864 (Campbell, R, A): Relating to a handgun proficiency course that is taken to obtain or renew a concealed handgun license. Reduces the CHL class from 10 to 15 hours to 4 to 6 hours.

How long does the class take in Texas?

Are you saying that Both of these bills passed into law?

Thanks for noting a copy/paste error on my part. Ultimately HB 47 was laid on the floor to accept the companion bill SB 864.

The 4 to 6 hours is the range of time allowed by law. The CHL training class can be no less than 4 hours and no longer than 6 hours. Certainly people are allowed to purchase as much additional training as they desire, and an instructor is allowed to cover as much material as they want in any other class ("advanced CHL training") but they cannot be froced to sit through that additional training to meet the qualification requirements to get a CHL. If a person attends for a full six hours, the instructor must provide the training certificate allowing them to get a license without requiring any time in excess of 6 hours.