When did it happen?

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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Werz
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Werz »

Chuck wrote:
Werz wrote:I was answering this question:
Chuck wrote:My question to you is, when did it happen?
When did open carriers EVER make things worse for the average gun owner then they already were?
Lawyer word games. I believe I made myself clear on what I am looking for.
Nevertheless, how did this guy make things worse?
Really, Chuck? Really?!

I quoted your words. I was answering your question. Where's the word game?

People like Leonard Embody and Kory Watkins and their ilk demean us and our cause. They affect how we are perceived by the courts which judge us, the general public (i.e., voters), and the establishments with which we engage in commerce. Are you implying that has nothing to do with who is elected to the legislature and how they vote?

In 1995, Senate Bill 68 - a "may issue" licensed concealed carry bill - was passed in the Ohio Senate by a super-majority. It was then beaten down by a Republican governor (Voinovich from Cleveland) and a Republican Speaker of the House (Davidson from Columbus) who knew it would not play well in the urban areas where they originated. It took us nine more years to get licensed concealed carry in the State of Ohio. We passed a state-wide preemption law in 2006 (R.C. 9.68), and it took four more years for the Ohio Supreme Court to force compliance on the City of Cleveland, and that city has just proved that it is still willing to defy that law.

The law progresses slowly. Actions have consequences, but those consequences are not always seen immediately.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
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"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
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DontTreadOnMe
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

Chuck wrote:I however, CAN show you where better laws were passed after OC events and incidents
No one has shown where bad laws where created following the same
I-594, the successful Washington State universal background checks initiative. As Stryker74 said you're never going to be able to prove absolute causality either way, but all the OC tomfoolery leading up to that effort motivated Bloomberg's groups and was used by them to create negative association and sway people who weren't already strongly on one side or another.

Related: Here's some OC advocacy in the Washington House gallery during I-594 protests:
Image

That helped. The other side.
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

If you doubt those images of OC nonsense got enough mainstream attention to where they could actually have made an impact? I offer the following:

Image

That was from May 20, 2014. According to TVByTheNumbers:
"The Daily Show With Jon Stewart" Tops The Competition In May As The Most-Watched Late Night Talk Show Among Persons 18-49, Persons 18-34, Persons 18-24, Men 18-34 And Men 18-24
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MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Chuck wrote:
Brian D. wrote:
Chuck, as memory serves from a few days ago, daveinohio is using a quote from MyWifeSaidYes. Pretty sure it was MWSY who stated that medical center posted 'No guns' signage right after he OC'd there.
O I C
Thanks for that explanation
I just called the Fairfield Medical Center (FMC) police department and asked about their carry policy regarding my open carry there and their posting shortly after.

The officer I spoke with wasn't familiar with anyone open carrying there, but confirmed that the hospital has NEVER allowed any firearms in the building.

He suggested that the sign may have simply been missing when I was there. Whatever the case, I don't think we can use FMC as a valid example of open carry making things
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Chuck
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Chuck »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Chuck wrote:I however, CAN show you where better laws were passed after OC events and incidents
No one has shown where bad laws where created following the same
I-594, the successful Washington State universal background checks initiative. As Stryker74 said you're never going to be able to prove absolute causality either way, but all the OC tomfoolery leading up to that effort motivated Bloomberg's groups and was used by them to create negative association and sway people who weren't already strongly on one side or another.

Related: Here's some OC advocacy in the Washington House gallery during I-594 protests:
Image

That helped. The other side.
This one is a good one
Thank you
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And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Klingon00
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Klingon00 »

In areas that are in pro-gun hands, it may take time for any effects to be clearly noticeable. In areas that are very purple or even blue, any effects may be more immediate.
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Chuck
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Chuck »

Werz wrote:
Chuck wrote: Lawyer word games. I believe I made myself clear on what I am looking for.
Nevertheless, how did this guy make things worse?
Really, Chuck? Really?!

I quoted your words. I was answering your question. Where's the word game?
Yes really
The word game is in your selective quoting of my admittedly poor word smithing in my OP, ignoring my closing sentence, and also ignoring my clarification post at the top of page two.
Lawyerly tricks, word games

People like Leonard Embody and Kory Watkins and their ilk demean us and our cause. They affect how we are perceived by the courts which judge us, the general public (i.e., voters), and the establishments with which we engage in commerce. Are you implying that has nothing to do with who is elected to the legislature and how they vote?
I'm not implying anything
I'm saying flat out that the constant insulting from those who think others of us aren't good enough to advocate is doing our cause harm
More harm than the antis do, and certainly more harm than we Open Carriers do

In 1995, Senate Bill 68 - a "may issue" licensed concealed carry bill - was passed in the Ohio Senate by a super-majority. It was then beaten down by a Republican governor (Voinovich from Cleveland) and a Republican Speaker of the House (Davidson from Columbus) who knew it would not play well in the urban areas where they originated. It took us nine more years to get licensed concealed carry in the State of Ohio. We passed a state-wide preemption law in 2006 (R.C. 9.68), and it took four more years for the Ohio Supreme Court to force compliance on the City of Cleveland, and that city has just proved that it is still willing to defy that law.
Yep, and who gets the blame for that delay?

The fact is, these things take time, and blaming that time on activists is counter productive

The law progresses slowly. Actions have consequences, but those consequences are not always seen immediately.
We are making progress, steadily, constantly, and consistently
And despite the predictions that we are making things worse, the cause of increased gun rights in Ohio continues to improve.
And at a much faster pace than the example quoted above

IOW, the point of this thread is to call for unity
This never ending bickering, mocking, and ridiculing is just as bad, if not worse, than whatever harm some may think we are causing

It's like this:
The antis aren't smart enough to come up with their own persuasive arguments, but the do-gooders are only too happy to provide some for them.
Just in case the antis haven't picked up on old tape face yet, let's post it a few more times with some scathing comments.

Lets do away with "perspective" and deal with reality
And that reality is that we are THIS CLOSE, to having restrictions lifted completely on transporting a gun in a car
And it's highly likely that someone like me will be in a position to tell someone who votes on such things, "it's not a big deal, the way the law is now you can put your gun in a freezer bag, so why not just let them stick it in the glove box? It's not that big of a change"
Isn't that how we're eating this elephant, one bite at a time?
What's wrong with enjoying each bite?
I assure you that once it is legal for everyone to have a gun in the car, like Georgia for example, no one will care if someone puts it in a freezer bag

A team has many players, playing different positions. Having different jobs, doing what they do best
Evan Price has a tag line in his sig: "Striking down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!"
We should all practice that, and do what we do best
If that is calling attention to all the freedom we have, do it
If it is running a web site for the cause, do that, etc, etc, etc

I have asked when did it happen and the answer is basically "never"
With the exception of a left coast screw up or two, gun rights are on the march and making some serious progress
So let us bury the hatchet, let us stop eating our own, and let us start showing some teamwork, and let us win this thing, together

Ain't that a good idea?
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Chuck
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Chuck »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:If you doubt those images of OC nonsense got enough mainstream attention to where they could actually have made an impact? I offer the following:

Image

That was from May 20, 2014. According to TVByTheNumbers:
"The Daily Show With Jon Stewart" Tops The Competition In May As The Most-Watched Late Night Talk Show Among Persons 18-49, Persons 18-34, Persons 18-24, Men 18-34 And Men 18-24
Chipotle isn't posted, and being on Jon Steward doesn't ruin you for life
Heck, Jim Irvin was on Jon Steward, or was it Corbert?

Don't get me wrong, I don't like those guys and I don't approve of them,
But I will still defend their right to speak for themselves
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Chuck
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Chuck »

Klingon00 wrote:In areas that are in pro-gun hands, it may take time for any effects to be clearly noticeable. In areas that are very purple or even blue, any effects may be more immediate.
I'd agree with you, except there haven't been any examples of "more immediate" detriment
Except on the left coast, and that one would have happened anyway, IMO
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Klingon00
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Klingon00 »

Drip.. drip... drip... the antis keep bringing up OCT Chipotle incident for their own gains little by little, again and again. Will it be successful at changing any laws? I don't know, but it's certainly given them a cudgel to keep knocking us over the head with publicly.

http://www.range365.com/bill-maher-owns ... e-sickness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Tweed Ring »

I don’t care about the anti-gun right people knocking us on our heads. However, I do care about the anti-gun right people successfully knocking the pols on their heads, as those are the people who make the laws which have impact on us.
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Klingon00 »

In a state where a ballot measure can change our state constitution by a simple majority vote, I care very much what the public perception is ever bit as much.
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by Tweed Ring »

Point taken.
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by pirateguy191 »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:If you doubt those images of OC nonsense got enough mainstream attention to where they could actually have made an impact? I offer the following:

Image

That was from May 20, 2014. According to TVByTheNumbers:
"The Daily Show With Jon Stewart" Tops The Competition In May As The Most-Watched Late Night Talk Show Among Persons 18-49, Persons 18-34, Persons 18-24, Men 18-34 And Men 18-24
I seem to recall hearing that picture wasn't even from the U.S. Anybody know for sure?
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Re: When did it happen?

Post by pirateguy191 »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
Chuck wrote:
Interesting reading, thanks guys!

Would it be fair to presume that this case had something to do with ORC 9.68 becoming the law of the land?
And if my presumption is wrong, what bad law came from his actions?
It almost had a negative effect with a certain lawsuit that happened at the same time. Imagine if Clyde was lost because of an incident such as that.
It didn't and it wasn't. Right?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh

NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
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