"Open" carrying in a vehicle

[Werz]

I have to say I am very disturbed at Bob's comparison of legally transporting a handgun to belligerently bringing rifles into private businesses who don't want them there and causing damage to the entire gun rights movement.
I don't see it, but I do respect his opinion, highly, so perhaps I'm missing something

It's the whole "poking with a pointy stick" thing, Chuck. Some folks actually believe that if they are narrowly within the bounds of the law, there will be no consequences of any kind. Maybe that is self-delusion; maybe it's a complete lack of social interaction. Once an "edgy" practice takes hold, people react, and those who make the rules respond. That's what happened in Texas:

1. Open carry advocates started carrying ARs and AKs into national chain stores;
2. Mom's Demand Action started their jihad;
3. Large corporations started publicly asking people not to bring firearms into their businesses;
4. Open carry got a bad reputation; and
5. Open carry laws became poison in the state legislature.

Actions have consequences. Just because those consequences are not direct does not mean they are not foreseeable.

The same was true with "pushing the envelope" on the Sig Arm Brace, as I discussed here.

I know that some people live to push the limits. And some of it is legal. But those people should not pretend that it has no consequences, nor should they pretend that they could not predict those consequences.

I'm just trying to help a guy stay within the law for a few weeks until he can get his license. He ain't trying to poke anything, he just wants to be left alone and stay legal.
I don't see what's edgy about putting your gun in a freezer bag with the magazine in another bag and putting it in the glove box, center console, or on the seat beside him while he droves to his next stop.
* * *
Do you really think this guy trying to get by for the next few weeks REALLY equates to all that stuff you just typed?

I was expecting that response. That is why I prepared the following:

Let's say this is not just someone getting by for a few weeks. Let's say this becomes a regular practice amongst unlicensed handgun carriers because, after reading the OFCC forums, they become convinced that it's perfectly legal. And let's say that one of them is stopped by the Ohio State Highway Patrol for a minor violation. As is common practice these days, the officer approaches from the passenger side and is greeted with this:



The driver says nothing because, as a non-licensee, he is not required to do so. The trooper orders him out of the car and seizes the firearm. After looking at R.C. 2923.16(K)(5)(b), the trooper decides that this "hillbilly gun rug" is in no way what the legislature intended, so he recommends that the driver be charged with a fourth degree felony under R.C. 2923.16(B).

Now, let's put aside that this guy will now need to consider hiring a lawyer. And don't even consider the fact that he might be charged, convicted and the conviction upheld on appeal. Let's consider the indirect effects.

The case comes to the prosecutor. The prosecutor refuses to charge. Or the prosecutor charges and the judge or jury acquits. Either way, the trooper and the post commander are stunned that this type of thing is allowed. They contact the colonel, and the colonel agrees. The colonel contacts one of the Ohio State Highway Patrol's favorite legislators (and you know that OSP has a lot of pull in the General Assembly) and complains that this type of stunt is intolerable.

New legislation is introduce. Images like the one above are shown to the committee with the insistence that troopers are seeing guns like this being carried in vehicles by unlicensed gunslingers, and they need to do something to control it. Suddenly, we're fighting the same battle we won back in 2012 with HB 495. And our friends in the legislature are looking at us and asking, "Did you really tell people this was OK?"

Actions have consequences.

[varro]

MWSY, thanks for sharing your experiment. I found it interesting, I thought for sure the plastic would be faster than contending with a zipper. Oh, and I'm glad this thread offered a reason to hit the range! I'll definitely have to consider your experiment when I do start transporting my handgun, and maybe test it out myself. If I do, I'll be sure to post my results.

I have to say I may go with the gun rug, but mostly for the fact that I'll probably want one for the range anyway. Werz, I'm obviously not a lawyer and I'm sure you're more well-versed in this subject than I, which is why I have given considerable thought to everything you have said. However, I have to agree with Chuck in that I just don't see the baggie method as being edgy; and I certainly don't think that it's comparable to toting an AK into a national chain for a public display of "because I can". I don't intend on anyone seeing my mode of transportation other than myself and maybe my passenger, depending on who that is. It's not out on display or intended to make any political statements. I just want a simple and easy way to legally transport my firearm while waiting for the license.

He ain't trying to poke anything, he just wants to be left alone and stay legal.

Emphasis mine. You hit the nail right on the head there, Chuck.

For the record, in the event of a traffic stop my firearm will be out of sight. As a non-licensee without duty to inform, the LEO will almost certainly be none the wiser.

[Chuck]

I have nothing left to say,,,,

[varro]

Thanks everyone for the responses. It's given me a lot to think about.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...I don't see what's edgy about putting your gun in a freezer bag...

Whoa, there!

Nobody said ANYTHING about a FREEZER BAG.

I was just using Kroger brand 'Slide-n-Seal' sandwich bags.

Ripping through one of those heavy duty freezer bags?

FUGETABOUTIT !

[Chuck]

...I don't see what's edgy about putting your gun in a freezer bag...

Whoa, there!

Nobody said ANYTHING about a FREEZER BAG.

I was just using Kroger brand 'Slide-n-Seal' sandwich bags.

Ripping through one of those heavy duty freezer bags?

FUGETABOUTIT !

Wrong again, my bald headed buddy!!
My freezer bag is what started this conversation:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php? ... 7#p4314884" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Leave your holster on
Put your UNLOADED gun in a Ziplock freezer bag
Put your loaded magazine in a Ziplock sandwich bag, and put that bag inside the first bag with the gun
Put that any where in the vehicle you like, and that will be legal

See what happens when you jump into the middle of the thread??

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Wrong again, my bald headed buddy!!
My freezer bag is what started this conversation:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php? ... 7#p4314884" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Leave your holster on
Put your UNLOADED gun in a Ziplock freezer bag
Put your loaded magazine in a Ziplock sandwich bag, and put that bag inside the first bag with the gun
Put that any where in the vehicle you like, and that will be legal

See what happens when you jump into the middle of the thread??

Hmm. I see...I see.

So, does the gun HAVE to go in a freezer bag and the magazine in a sandwich bag, or can they be reversed?

Or can both go into their own freezer bag? Or their own sandwich bags?

And what about the snack bags? They're big enough for magazines, right?

Or how about the baggies that come in different colors? Would one be allowed to color-code their guns and ammo?

And then there are the baggies with patterns...



Chuck, this is critical information. We may have to continue this discussion at the upcoming Westland Gun Show on April 25 & 26.

Does everyone reading this thread realize that each day you work a shift at an OFCC gun show table, you will be entered into a drawing for a firearm?


Well...you do.

[Chuck]

A real gun wouldn't fit in a sandwich bag,,,,

[pirateguy191]

A real gun wouldn't fit in a sandwich bag,,,,

^^^^That.

[Mustang380gal]

Whether or not he is trying to be provocative isn't really the question.

The question is how do reasonable, responsible gun owners care for and transport their firearms.

No way would I consider a ziplock baggie, color coded, slider, or freezer to be adequate for my firearms' storage. I don't believe most of the rest here would consider that, either. Part of of the reason my Sig would be in a bag is to protect it if there was an accident. A baggie offers no protection at all. I don't want my firearm rattling around in the car getting scratched or dented.

How would a jury look at ziplock baggie storage if it came to it? I cannot see a jury thinking that a baggie is proper storage for a firearm.

For the price of a box of baggies, a small gun case can be bought, and prevent all manner of consequences.

[TJW815]

Whether or not he is trying to be provocative isn't really the question.

The question is how do reasonable, responsible gun owners care for and transport their firearms.

No way would I consider a ziplock baggie, color coded, slider, or freezer to be adequate for my firearms' storage. I don't believe most of the rest here would consider that, either. Part of of the reason my Sig would be in a bag is to protect it if there was an accident. A baggie offers no protection at all. I don't want my firearm rattling around in the car getting scratched or dented.

How would a jury look at ziplock baggie storage if it came to it? I cannot see a jury thinking that a baggie is proper storage for a firearm.

For the price of a box of baggies, a small gun case can be bought, and prevent all manner of consequences.

Now if we are talking an accident involving water submersion, a Baggie may just the ticket!

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...
How would a jury look at ziplock baggie storage if it came to it? I cannot see a jury thinking that a baggie is proper storage for a firearm...

I hear Representative Patmon of Cleveland has some EXCELLENT ideas about what "proper storage" should be.

Forgive my forgetfulness, but why are we required to "store" our firearms at all?

Oh, that's right...because it is written into our LAW...which, of course, defines "proper storage".

Oh, wait...it doesn't. The law ACTUALLY gives a citizen a VERY BROAD DEFINITION of storage.

"But MWSY, if you push that envelope (hmm...envelope ) then the lawmakers might define "proper storage" to specifically exclude plastic baggies!"

Yes, but you don't think plastic baggies are "proper storage" anyway, so what would it hurt?

"But MWSY, just because we don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean we want to lose that choice. It's just another right we want to KEEP but not EXERCISE."

Ah. I see.

[Werz]

...
How would a jury look at ziplock baggie storage if it came to it? I cannot see a jury thinking that a baggie is proper storage for a firearm...

I hear Representative Patmon of Cleveland has some EXCELLENT ideas about what "proper storage" should be.

Forgive my forgetfulness, but why are we required to "store" our firearms at all?

Oh, that's right...because it is written into our LAW...which, of course, defines "proper storage".

Oh, wait...it doesn't. The law ACTUALLY gives a citizen a VERY BROAD DEFINITION of storage.

"But MWSY, if you push that envelope (hmm...envelope ) then the lawmakers might define "proper storage" to specifically exclude plastic baggies!"

Yes, but you don't think plastic baggies are "proper storage" anyway, so what would it hurt?

"But MWSY, just because we don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean we want to lose that choice. It's just another right we want to KEEP but not EXERCISE."

Ah. I see.

Let's review:

A young man who will turn 21 in a week or so is looking for a lawful manner in which to carry a handgun until he obtains a concealed handgun license. Recommendations were given as to how he might accomplish that without unnecessary attention from law enforcement officers. You, on the other hand, have encouraged him to engage in social experiments, testing the limits of what will be tolerated by law enforcement. And you are encouraging him to do this before he is even old enough to obtain a concealed handgun license. Furthermore, you seem offended that this young man would not consider your judgment as an activist to be superior to that of the people who are recommending a more cautious approach.

Perhaps young varro would benefit from a graphic demonstration of your superior judgment:



'Nuff said.

[BEAR!]

...
How would a jury look at ziplock baggie storage if it came to it? I cannot see a jury thinking that a baggie is proper storage for a firearm...

I hear Representative Patmon of Cleveland has some EXCELLENT ideas about what "proper storage" should be.

Forgive my forgetfulness, but why are we required to "store" our firearms at all?

Oh, that's right...because it is written into our LAW...which, of course, defines "proper storage".

Oh, wait...it doesn't. The law ACTUALLY gives a citizen a VERY BROAD DEFINITION of storage.

"But MWSY, if you push that envelope (hmm...envelope ) then the lawmakers might define "proper storage" to specifically exclude plastic baggies!"

Yes, but you don't think plastic baggies are "proper storage" anyway, so what would it hurt?

"But MWSY, just because we don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean we want to lose that choice. It's just another right we want to KEEP but not EXERCISE."

Ah. I see.

Let's review:

A young man who will turn 21 in a week or so is looking for a lawful manner in which to carry a handgun until he obtains a concealed handgun license. Recommendations were given as to how he might accomplish that without unnecessary attention from law enforcement officers. You, on the other hand, have encouraged him to engage in social experiments, testing the limits of what will be tolerated by law enforcement. And you are encouraging him to do this before he is even old enough to obtain a concealed handgun license. Furthermore, you seem offended that this young man would not consider your judgment as an activist to be superior to that of the people who are recommending a more cautious approach.

Perhaps young varro would benefit from a graphic demonstration of your superior judgment:



'Nuff said.

WOW!! LOL Is that a gun strapped to his head?? I just woke up the 'ol lady laughing!

[Stryker74]

Alright - this thread has gone to personal attacks of character, which is in violation of the TOS.

Ladies and Gents - remember, we are all on the same side. Cooler heads and all that stuff, or I am going to let Mustang380gal deal with you all.