Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
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- SeanC
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
Meh. I'd take this one to a jury. I'd print the text out really big and show it to them, and I'm pretty confident about an acquittal. If not, I'd take it to the Court of Appeals and get the conviction overturned on the rule of lenity. It's a poorly written statute at best.
I am a lawyer; I am not your lawyer.
- BobK
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
So does that mean you would carry a loaded rifle in the trunk of your car?SeanC wrote:Meh. I'd take this one to a jury. I'd print the text out really big and show it to them, and I'm pretty confident about an acquittal. If not, I'd take it to the Court of Appeals and get the conviction overturned on the rule of lenity. It's a poorly written statute at best.
I am a: NRA Life Member, Texas State Rifle Association Life Member, Texas Firearms Coalition Gold member, OFCC Patron Member, former JFPO member (pre-SAF).
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More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
- SeanC
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
"Would I" and "do I think it's legal" are different. I would not carry a loaded rifle in the trunk of my car because that's silly. Would I take a case to defend a guy who had done that, yes, absolutely.BobK wrote:So does that mean you would carry a loaded rifle in the trunk of your car?SeanC wrote:Meh. I'd take this one to a jury. I'd print the text out really big and show it to them, and I'm pretty confident about an acquittal. If not, I'd take it to the Court of Appeals and get the conviction overturned on the rule of lenity. It's a poorly written statute at best.
As far as I'm concerned, the key to the whole thing is that if 2923.16(C) means that all firearms must be unloaded and carried in a particular way, what is the purpose of (B)? You can't construct statutes in a way that renders any part of the law meaningless or useless.
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- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
Actually it's that you don't interpret them that way, which btw is what you're doing.SeanC wrote:As far as I'm concerned, the key to the whole thing is that if 2923.16(C) means that all firearms must be unloaded and carried in a particular way, what is the purpose of (B)? You can't construct statutes in a way that renders any part of the law meaningless or useless.
- MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
No. Look at my earlier post regarding R.C. 1.47.DontTreadOnMe wrote:Actually it's that you don't interpret them that way, which btw is what you're doing.SeanC wrote:As far as I'm concerned, the key to the whole thing is that if 2923.16(C) means that all firearms must be unloaded and carried in a particular way, what is the purpose of (B)? You can't construct statutes in a way that renders any part of the law meaningless or useless.
You can't rest your conclusions on R.C. 1.51 and then simply ignore R.C. 1.47 and 1.49.(B) The entire statute is intended to be effective;
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- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
That's right, which is why an interpretation that makes one section ineffective goes against that. There's a perfectly simple reading of the statute to prohibit unlicensed transport of a loaded firearm ... the part that says "No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless ... the firearm is unloaded, and ...".MyWifeSaidYes wrote:No. Look at my earlier post regarding R.C. 1.47.
(B) The entire statute is intended to be effective;
As I explained before there's nothing in 2923.16 that allows any form of loaded transport, so interpreting the statute in a way that prohibits all forms of loaded transport is not a conflict with 1.47.
1.49 is about determining legislative intent. The legislative intent to prohibit loaded transport is obvious from the part where the statute explicitly prohibits loaded transport.MyWifeSaidYes wrote:You can't rest your conclusions on R.C. 1.51 and then simply ignore R.C. 1.47 and 1.49.
- Werz
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
It would be better to look at the case law:MyWifeSaidYes wrote:No. Look at my earlier post regarding R.C. 1.47.DontTreadOnMe wrote:Actually it's that you don't interpret them that way, which btw is what you're doing.SeanC wrote:As far as I'm concerned, the key to the whole thing is that if 2923.16(C) means that all firearms must be unloaded and carried in a particular way, what is the purpose of (B)? You can't construct statutes in a way that renders any part of the law meaningless or useless.
"Painson argues that his conviction for improperly handling a firearm in a motor vehicle is based on insufficient evidence because officers found a firearm in his trunk. He argues that the State failed to introduce any evidence that he had access to his trunk from the inside of the vehicle. See R.C. 2923.16(C)(2). By its plain language, however, R.C. 2923.16(C) prohibits a person from knowingly transporting or having a firearm in a motor vehicle unless it is carried in one of the specified manners and it is unloaded. Officers testified that the handgun in Painson's vehicle was fully loaded when they removed it from the boot in his trunk. Accordingly, we cannot say that the State failed to present sufficient evidence to support Painson's conviction for improperly handling a firearm. Painson's sole assignment of error lacks merit." (Emphasis in original) State v. Painson, 2008-Ohio-6623, at ¶12 (9th Dist.).
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
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Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
Case law based on a poorly argued appeal.Painson's sole assignment of error lacks merit
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- Werz
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
Yeah, you go ahead and argue that one, along with your assertion that the "or" in R.C. 2921.29(A) means that you can pick only one.MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Case law based on a poorly argued appeal.Painson's sole assignment of error lacks merit
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- pirateguy191
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
So, what's the bottom freaking line? Lawyers, almost lawyers, wannabe lawyers and all others have different opinions. Why does it have to be so damn hard?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
How's this for a bottom line:
If you want to be a test case, which means getting arrested and going to trial, be my guest. If you get acquitted or an appeals court overturns based on the arguments in this thread I'll be happy to say I was wrong.
If you're not interested in being a test case, then don't transport a loaded rifle (or handgun, unless you have a CHL) in your vehicle, regardless of whether or not it's accessible w/o leaving the vehicle.
If you want to be a test case, which means getting arrested and going to trial, be my guest. If you get acquitted or an appeals court overturns based on the arguments in this thread I'll be happy to say I was wrong.
If you're not interested in being a test case, then don't transport a loaded rifle (or handgun, unless you have a CHL) in your vehicle, regardless of whether or not it's accessible w/o leaving the vehicle.
- Werz
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
I found several other cases which readily accepted that a loaded firearm in the trunk is a violation of R.C. 2923.16, although most of those apply to pre-CHL law. However, the relevant provisions of R.C. 2923.16 have not really changed, except to accommodate the existence of concealed handgun licenses:pirateguy191 wrote:So, what's the bottom freaking line? Lawyers, almost lawyers, wannabe lawyers and all others have different opinions. Why does it have to be so damn hard?
R.C. 2923.16 (2003)
(B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without leaving the vehicle.
(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless it is unloaded and is carried in one of the following ways:
(1) In a closed package, box, or case;
(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;
(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;
Simplified Rule:R.C. 2923.16 (2015)
(B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without leaving the vehicle.
(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:
(1) In a closed package, box, or case;
(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;
(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;
The only way you should carry a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle on a public highway (and without a law enforcement exemption) is:
- If it's a handgun, and
- If you have a concealed handgun license.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
Always interested in being a test case.DontTreadOnMe wrote:...
If you're not interested in being a test case,...
Just need someone else to pick up the legal tab.
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- djthomas
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Re: Carrying a firearm unloaded in vehicle
From a non-lawyer standpoint the use of (B) and (C) is very consistent with how the GA has framed up other laws, particularly when they wish to associate different penalties with different fact patterns but fit them under the same general law. The crime is still improper handling but it's a question of whether you catch a felony or a low level misdemeanor.