And one arrest or university sanction by someone that wants to go on a solo mission can drag that July out to December.Brian D. wrote:I don't agree that the "cowboy diplomacy" needs to stop because a case is going to drag its way through some court for months or even years. You get news coverage of a walk you can change some serious amount of minds all at once. Two pronged attack FTW. Well, wait, three pronged attack if we can get the statehouse gang in some kind of forward motion on this to begin with.JediSkipdogg wrote: The problem though is that once a civil lawsuit starts pretty much everything else needs to stop. If any incidents that deal with the civil lawsuit occur, they will immediately put a halt on the lawsuit until that incident is fully resolved. This can even be a bogus DC charge that may be dismissed in court, just hope the defendant is willing to take it full course (and gets it dismissed) and not take a plea of guilty to a lesser charge as that may work out for the defendant of the civil lawsuit.
According to the court's website the suit won't begin in earnest until at least July of next year. Tired of waiting already. Let's rock the colleges!
What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bills
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- JediSkipdogg
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
Jedi, what are you talking about "solo mission'"? Did you not see any coverage of our walks at UC and OSU last year? Almost seventy people at UC, and about twenty (on VERY short notice) at OSU. We just need a little more advance notice--with hopefully the full help and blessing of this forum and its leadership--and maybe we can break 100 each time.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
If it can be done in a large group why can't it be done solo? We have several people that are doing solo walks throughout several communities that are occasionally causing problems. It's only time before they do it on a college campus. After all, if no problems for a large group, what's the problem for a solo?Brian D. wrote:Jedi, what are you talking about "solo mission'"? Did you not see any coverage of our walks at UC and OSU last year? Almost seventy people at UC, and about twenty (on VERY short notice) at OSU. We just need a little more advance notice--with hopefully the full help and blessing of this forum and its leadership--and maybe we can break 100 each time.
And I'll come out and be the official one to say you will not get a blessing from OFCC for campus walks during the lawsuit. Once the lawsuit is over, you may get a full blessing.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
Let's just call a spade a spade, and BB is just trolling to stroke his ego
He knows damn well what is going on with both the lawsuit and the bills, he just wants someone from here to say that nothing is happening
The Cincinnati event had both, the OSU event had neither, and I tried to explain that to Mr. Ego at the time
He decided to sever a friendship rather than listen to reason
With advance notice and proper planning, he very well COULD have had the full blessing of everyone here, but that wasn't his agenda
His agenda was to cause division, not to promote unity, that way he can tell everyone how much better he is than any gun rights groups, especially ours
So be it.
I call them like I see them, both good and bad, and hope this is taken in that spirit and not as a personal attack.
BB has done a lot of good for the cause, and I have always supported / joined him, but that day of the OSU walk he brought shame to our cause as well as himself, and he has kept that bad blood simmering ever since.
In the game of advocacy for rights, we sometimes win and we sometimes lose, but we should ALWAYS conduct ourselves with honor.
Going to pro-gun rallies and running down fellow advocates and the groups they belong to does worse than nothing, it communicates a negative impression of our side to all the undecideds to hear it.
For once and for all, let's let bygones be bygones, and put the egos in a drawer for the good of the cause.
We will NEVER make any headway by bashing each other
He knows damn well what is going on with both the lawsuit and the bills, he just wants someone from here to say that nothing is happening
Advance notice is good, so is proper planningBrian D. wrote:Jedi, what are you talking about "solo mission'"? Did you not see any coverage of our walks at UC and OSU last year? Almost seventy people at UC, and about twenty (on VERY short notice) at OSU. We just need a little more advance notice--with hopefully the full help and blessing of this forum and its leadership--and maybe we can break 100 each time.
The Cincinnati event had both, the OSU event had neither, and I tried to explain that to Mr. Ego at the time
He decided to sever a friendship rather than listen to reason
With advance notice and proper planning, he very well COULD have had the full blessing of everyone here, but that wasn't his agenda
His agenda was to cause division, not to promote unity, that way he can tell everyone how much better he is than any gun rights groups, especially ours
So be it.
I call them like I see them, both good and bad, and hope this is taken in that spirit and not as a personal attack.
BB has done a lot of good for the cause, and I have always supported / joined him, but that day of the OSU walk he brought shame to our cause as well as himself, and he has kept that bad blood simmering ever since.
In the game of advocacy for rights, we sometimes win and we sometimes lose, but we should ALWAYS conduct ourselves with honor.
Going to pro-gun rallies and running down fellow advocates and the groups they belong to does worse than nothing, it communicates a negative impression of our side to all the undecideds to hear it.
For once and for all, let's let bygones be bygones, and put the egos in a drawer for the good of the cause.
We will NEVER make any headway by bashing each other
Ain't activism fun?
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
Suppose the lawsuit falls on its face, months or a year or whatever hence. Will OFCC wish to then take the helm on those OC walks?JediSkipdogg wrote:
And I'll come out and be the official one to say you will not get a blessing from OFCC for campus walks during the lawsuit. Once the lawsuit is over, you may get a full blessing.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
It will be talked about then when the time comes. The problem is still we can get a positive outcome in groups but that does not guarantee the outcome for a student doing it individually. At least with the Open Carry walks of 2003 and 2004 there was little the state could do to anyone. Case law had already determined open carry as legally, so the point was everyone will open carry unless you give us concealed carry. That's not the same correlation here. Students participating in the walks ARE violating student code of conduct but as the lawsuit has said, they can selectively enforce that. They are choosing not to enforce it in groups but have not stated they will not enforce the rule at all times. So it's much harder to handle. OSU, UC, BG, etc could wake up tomorrow and say they are going to enforce the action against any student they see participating in a walk as a group. And what will that gain us besides a possible group of expelled students?Brian D. wrote:Suppose the lawsuit falls on its face, months or a year or whatever hence. Will OFCC wish to then take the helm on those OC walks?JediSkipdogg wrote:
And I'll come out and be the official one to say you will not get a blessing from OFCC for campus walks during the lawsuit. Once the lawsuit is over, you may get a full blessing.
We will also work with Students for Concealed Carry and see how they would like the course to go.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
Thank you for answering my question.Brian D. wrote:The walks make political types uneasy, and more prone to listen to discussions about further broadening of concealed carry rights, techguy. I know it sounds wacky but those OC walks sped up the Statehouse CHL bill process back in 2004. For the third or fourth two year session in a row the Reps and Sens were screwing around and NOT getting to a vote. Those walks, with promises from our side to do more of them, bigger, and where the politicians lived, spurred them into passing the law sooner.
Strange tactic it may be, but I'm certain it can work similarly on college boards of directors as well. First you do the OC walks on campus, then you get the media to show up when your event is scheduled to pass the colllege president's house in that ritzy, gated community he/she lives in.
I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the open carry walks prior to CHL legislation. I was only 19 the year it passed and was probably still kind of anti-gun at that time (yeah, I was young and stupid.)
The tactic still sounds a little backward to me, especially given the reaction to long guns that people on campus have. Heck, one such student called 911 on me off campus a while back because I was holstering a handgun. And while I certainly had my fault in that situation, the point stands that the typical reaction is probably not education but mass calls to 911.
That having been said, I've been wrong before, so...
How does people organizing open carry walks change legislature's minds? In what way does it motivate them to see things our way versus just pushing back on us? Do we honestly think it will bring them to listen to us? Not in the 'shall not be infringed' ideal world, but in the real world of politics. Keep in mind that OSU has a very long arm downtown. The University System of Ohio has full-time lobbying at the state house. I don't want to see us make things worse for ourselves.
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
Don't know how many ways there are to state this so it'll be my last attempt for now. The walks, planned and announced in advance, focus media attention on the entity who we're trying to get to see things our way, and we haven't had any success going the all-politeness route. (Not that I'd expect to.)techguy85 wrote: Thank you for answering my question.
I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the open carry walks prior to CHL legislation. I was only 19 the year it passed and was probably still kind of anti-gun at that time (yeah, I was young and stupid.)
The tactic still sounds a little backward to me, especially given the reaction to long guns that people on campus have. Heck, one such student called 911 on me off campus a while back because I was holstering a handgun. And while I certainly had my fault in that situation, the point stands that the typical reaction is probably not education but mass calls to 911.
That having been said, I've been wrong before, so...
How does people organizing open carry walks change legislature's minds? In what way does it motivate them to see things our way versus just pushing back on us? Do we honestly think it will bring them to listen to us? Not in the 'shall not be infringed' ideal world, but in the real world of politics. Keep in mind that OSU has a very long arm downtown. The University System of Ohio has full-time lobbying at the state house. I don't want to see us make things worse for ourselves.
I really don't care about OSU's long arm downtown. their policies are making students and staff more vulnerable to being crime victims, in some cases victims of VIOLENT crimes on and around the campus. [Warning, extreme sarcasm ahead] Sometimes the victims even die, and gosh they'll never get those college loans paid back now. [/Extreme sarcasm] Those concerns should be a key part of any statement we make to the media, except my crack about the college loans of course. We as taxpayers fund those places and I resent heck out of ivory tower eggheads setting policies that limit the rights of people on those pieces of public property to protect themselves. Some of those eggheads have access to their own security staff, again on our tax dollars.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
The other thing that becomes a bit of a challenge is that the open carry walks of 2003 and 2004 took place in truly public spaces. State college campuses are distinct legal entities, and while the property they own is public they have more power to do things like trespass people that a city can't against somebody walking down the sidewalk. There's a long and colorful history of colleges banning people who are not students, faculty, or staff from their property for a variety of perceived slights.JediSkipdogg wrote:It will be talked about then when the time comes. The problem is still we can get a positive outcome in groups but that does not guarantee the outcome for a student doing it individually. At least with the Open Carry walks of 2003 and 2004 there was little the state could do to anyone. Case law had already determined open carry as legally, so the point was everyone will open carry unless you give us concealed carry. That's not the same correlation here.
The reason the group OC walks on campus worked is because the group was engaged in first amendment activities and there is state law that explicitly prohibits university boards of trustees from using their rulemaking authority to infringe on a person's first amendment rights. There's case law on that statute. Case law on 9.68 prohibiting a state entity from enacting rules (using rulemaking authority given to them by state law) to regulate firearms? Not so much. Would a lone student openly carrying a handgun as they go to and from class be exercising their first amendment rights? We would say yes, but the university would probably be willing to roll the dice on that one. Not that the student wouldn't prevail in the end but they've got a lot to lose.
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
A lot of what you have written is simply untrue, Chuck.Chuck wrote:Advance notice is good, so is proper planning
The Cincinnati event had both, the OSU event had neither, and I tried to explain that to Mr. Ego at the time
He decided to sever a friendship rather than listen to reason
With advance notice and proper planning, he very well COULD have had the full blessing of everyone here, but that wasn't his agenda
- There was more notice at UC than at OSU, but notice was still given, and the university still received it.
- The university acknowledged that the event was lawful, and I saw written evidence of the same before starting out ... just like you did at UC.
- If you meant notice to participants, there were plenty of people at the statehouse open carry event (including you) who could have come to OSU immediately thereafter.
- The walk would never have had the blessing of everyone because there was more than one ego involved, and plenty of people know that.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
I don't think there's anything disingenuous about my opinion, although I left lots of specifics out of my post.Werz wrote:A lot of what you have written is simply untrue, Chuck.Chuck wrote:Advance notice is good, so is proper planning
The Cincinnati event had both, the OSU event had neither, and I tried to explain that to Mr. Ego at the time
He decided to sever a friendship rather than listen to reason
With advance notice and proper planning, he very well COULD have had the full blessing of everyone here, but that wasn't his agenda
You're entitled to your opinion, Chuck, but don't be disingenuous.
- There was more notice at UC than at OSU, but notice was still given, and the university still received it.
- The university acknowledged that the event was lawful, and I saw written evidence of the same before starting out ... just like you did at UC.
- If you meant notice to participants, there were plenty of people at the statehouse open carry event (including you) who could have come to OSU immediately thereafter.
- The walk would never have had the blessing of everyone because there was more than one ego involved, and plenty of people know that.
For example, BB was very adamant keeping his communications with the schools private and not sharing them with the folks he was asking to support him. If you are asking for our support and claim you have given proper notice and received proper permission, you ought to share that with the people you are asking support from. Is that unreasonable?
When I said the blessing of everyone, I meant as a group and not each individual
I am well aware that we all have our egos and personalities, and that is a good thing. We, as a group, represent freedom, freedom to be ourselves, unique individuals, who don't walk in lockstep. And yet, if you didn't follow BB blindly without reservation or question, you were a turncoat, a traitor, "despicable", and not worthy of fellowship or even the simple courtesies.
The problem was with timing, or should I say the lack of time, to vet the event for the people he was asking to support it, as well as his desire to keep all the info to himself.
Add to that the fact that they were all saying the UC event was such a rousing success in spite of no support from any of the gun rights groups, and you have a recipe for a divided community.
I think that same division is / was the purpose of this thread. To say that BB honestly didn't know the status of both the lawsuit and the bills is disingenuous.....
Ain't activism fun?
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
Please explain the legal specifics behind your assertion.JediSkipdogg wrote:And one arrest or university sanction by someone that wants to go on a solo mission can drag that July out to December.Brian D. wrote:I don't agree that the "cowboy diplomacy" needs to stop because a case is going to drag its way through some court for months or even years. You get news coverage of a walk you can change some serious amount of minds all at once. Two pronged attack FTW. Well, wait, three pronged attack if we can get the statehouse gang in some kind of forward motion on this to begin with.JediSkipdogg wrote: The problem though is that once a civil lawsuit starts pretty much everything else needs to stop. If any incidents that deal with the civil lawsuit occur, they will immediately put a halt on the lawsuit until that incident is fully resolved. This can even be a bogus DC charge that may be dismissed in court, just hope the defendant is willing to take it full course (and gets it dismissed) and not take a plea of guilty to a lesser charge as that may work out for the defendant of the civil lawsuit.
According to the court's website the suit won't begin in earnest until at least July of next year. Tired of waiting already. Let's rock the colleges!
On another matter, unrelated to you, I didn't know that OFCC possessed a mind reader. You all must be so proud!
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)
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- Werz
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
Oh, I knew he was trolling when I read the subject header. And he was trolling on the same subject on the OFCC Facebook page. But that was only after the other "Mr. Ego" took an unprovoked shot at him on the OFCC Facebook page.Chuck wrote:To say that BB honestly didn't know the status of both the lawsuit and the bills is disingenuous.....
Yeah, let's put all the cards on the table.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
- Chuck
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- Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:06 am
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
I'd be very happy to put the deck away and start a whole new game
Nobody is going to win this one,,,,
Nobody is going to win this one,,,,
Ain't activism fun?
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: What has become of the OSU lawsuit and campus carry bill
Can we all agree that:
The ban on concealed and open carry on (public) college campuses is stupid and without any real reason (unreasonable fear of firearms doesn't count.)
Let's take all the arguments about the people and what they may or may not have done out of it and try to figure out how we can move ourselves forward on this issue. Is the best course of action to wait to see what the court says? Is pushing forward on open carry walks going to cause issues for this legal action, and if so, should we avoid open carry walks at OSU for the time being?
We are all (hopefully) working for the same goal here. I want licensees to be able to carry their guns on campus without fear of sanction. Openly or concealed.
The ban on concealed and open carry on (public) college campuses is stupid and without any real reason (unreasonable fear of firearms doesn't count.)
Let's take all the arguments about the people and what they may or may not have done out of it and try to figure out how we can move ourselves forward on this issue. Is the best course of action to wait to see what the court says? Is pushing forward on open carry walks going to cause issues for this legal action, and if so, should we avoid open carry walks at OSU for the time being?
We are all (hopefully) working for the same goal here. I want licensees to be able to carry their guns on campus without fear of sanction. Openly or concealed.