Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

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Kgolf31
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Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by Kgolf31 »

Yesterday I went to the ODNR Grand River range to shoot my AR and get some trigger time.

I've been there a couple times, and never experience this issue.

I walked into the entrance with 2 gun bags and my range bag packed full with ammo. It was extremely windy, so my shirt was blowing everywhere.

I didn't intentionally OC/nor did I pay any attention to conceal. I have a Raven Concealment holster, so being that I'm at a gun range it doesn't really matter in my mind either way to conceal or open.

Regardless. I went through the entrance and set my stuff down and proceeded to unload my ammo. At the time I was technically OCing


Almost instantly one of the range officers came over to me and almost wanted to talk to the side of the range. We moved away from the bench and the conversation proceeded like so:

ODNR Range Officer: "Hey man, I don't want to see it but do you have your conceal carry?"
Me: "....Yes"
ODNR Range Officer: "Okay if you could, can you please conceal your firearm with your shirt while you're here. As well when you go downrange and everywhere else the gun stays with you and doesn't rest on the bench...okay?"

I was a bit confused with the random approach and the range officer telling me to keep my gun on me at all times, but agreed anyways to throw my shirt over the gun. I drove 45 minutes to shoot and just really didn't care at that point. The wind blew my shirt up the whole day up and I didn't care less to mind to keep on covering it every 20 seconds while shooting. Never had an issue after the first encounter.


Anyway, has anyone else received this from any ODNR Range Officer? I don't know if it is because of my age (being 24) but I wouldn't expect this would happen at a gun range. Would you?
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by JustaShooter »

Very interesting. I've never been to an ODNR range that was supervised so I don't know the normal policies and procedures but I may look into them in the light of this incident. You see, unless the weather requires a jacket, I *always* OC when I'm at the range and I don't think the ODNR can set a rule against it - or at least, not in the light of ORC 9.68.
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curmudgeon3
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by curmudgeon3 »

I have been to ODNR ranges and it has been my experience that the Range Safety Officers are there solely to enforce range safety rules to prevent anyone from being injured, and not to enforce ORC gun control laws. It would not be in shooters' best interests to expand this instance into a public discussion about Ohio carry laws. Best we just cool it I think.
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by Sevens »

Yep, if I'm guessing, I would suggest it's VERY much about the idea of a loaded firearm being down range or, well, anywhere on a range that is sometimes in the status of a "COLD" range. I would imagine that him wanting your carry gun covered is much more about him not having to deal with some OTHER person that points out the fact that you have a firearm behind the firing line of a cold range, etc etc.

I would imagine it's similar to a sanctioned pistol match. It's a cold range, only the guy on the firing line has a loaded handgun. We all know the laws and we all know (or should know) safe handling, but when the entire purpose of being there is for shooting, they've got the rules and the way they wish them to be handled.

If it matters (probably doesn't), I've found most ODNR Range Officers to be pretty good guys with a sometimes quite difficult and/or frustrating job. I've seen how some of the public handles firearms and shooting is more popular than ever. I would imagine that it's a lot like herding cats.
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by rimfireOH »

I wasn't able to find a copy of the rules they pass out at ODNR Grand River, but I remember from hearing the range rules explained multiple times that concealed carry is OK. It's my understanding that it's when it becomes un-concealed that it needs to be treated like your other firearms and benched during cease-fire. I did find this reference here, check 1501:31-29-03 D-2-b-v:
(v) Unload, open the action, ground or bench all firearms during a cease-fire or when someone moves down range to the target area.
That would imply that even a concealed firearm would need to be benched. Perhaps concealed carry is a bit of a grey area at the range?

I conceal-carry every time I'm there and have never been approached about it. I also keep concealed.

I realize that there's very little difference between two people walking to the targets on a cold range, both holstered, one OC and one CC. But something inside me cringes when I try to imagine a dozen of us walking to the targets on a cold range with all our firearms in our hands, long guns or pistols, unloaded or not.
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by djmac1964 »

I would guess that it's because they run a cold range, and do not want loaded firearms down range, or anyone in possession of a loaded firearm while people are down range (at least that's what I've got from the safety brief when I go there). I would imagine he was just telling you to cover it because he didn't want to tell you to unload it (outta sight, outta mind). I don't think they are too concerned with CHL holders, but that has been their policy in the past.
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Bianchi?
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by Bianchi? »

Sevens wrote:Yep, if I'm guessing, I would suggest it's VERY much about the idea of a loaded firearm being down range or, well, anywhere on a range that is sometimes in the status of a "COLD" range. I would imagine that him wanting your carry gun covered is much more about him not having to deal with some OTHER person that points out the fact that you have a firearm behind the firing line of a cold range, etc etc.
Bingo. It was pretty busy on Saturday when I was there (9:30-1:00). The two RSOs were pretty busy giving instructions to new people, and they probably didn't want to deal with someone making a stink.
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Curzyk
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by Curzyk »

I'm always carrying concealed when I go to Deer Creek. Gets pretty windy there too, but have never had an issue. The RSO there is a friendly, attentive fellow.
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SeanC
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by SeanC »

rimfireOH wrote:I wasn't able to find a copy of the rules they pass out at ODNR Grand River, but I remember from hearing the range rules explained multiple times that concealed carry is OK. It's my understanding that it's when it becomes un-concealed that it needs to be treated like your other firearms and benched during cease-fire. I did find this reference here, check 1501:31-29-03 D-2-b-v:
(v) Unload, open the action, ground or bench all firearms during a cease-fire or when someone moves down range to the target area.
That would imply that even a concealed firearm would need to be benched. Perhaps concealed carry is a bit of a grey area at the range?
I'm not aware of anything in state law that would allow ODNR to ban concealed carry on open public land, such as an outdoor range. With that said, though, this does seem to be out of a concern for safety and not some kind of conspiracy against concealed firearms. Not anything worth getting out the pitchforks and torches.
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Kgolf31
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by Kgolf31 »

I just want to clarify.

I don't want to make a stink about it. Really didn't have an issue, I guess at the time I didn't see the purpose of the conversation. Thought this was the appropriate area to post.

Thanks for explaining the purpose behind it.
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djthomas
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by djthomas »

SeanC wrote:I'm not aware of anything in state law that would allow ODNR to ban concealed carry on open public land, such as an outdoor range. With that said, though, this does seem to be out of a concern for safety and not some kind of conspiracy against concealed firearms. Not anything worth getting out the pitchforks and torches.
It's probably the same state law that allows the casino commission to promulgate rules requiring its licensees (i.e. the casinos) to post even though casinos are not statutory CPZs. Just sayin ;)

That said when I first went to the Grand River range concealed carry in Ohio was very new. In their standard "welcome to the range" orientation the RSOs made it a point to say that your CCW piece had to be unloaded like any other firearm. Some years later I got to talking to Bob and he affirmed the whole cold range bit. He said the problem is that like most safety rules they're driven by what the last idiot did. Because of the slow pace at the ODNR ranges there's a lot of time for gawking and boasting about the various hardware one has brought with them, particularly during cease fires. All it takes is one moron pulling out his EDC to show someone and now you've got a loaded gun being waved around behind the line with guys downrange.

I've never seen anyone get thrown out over this though. Another RSO all but said that if it's properly concealed then what they don't know won't hurt anyone but if they see it they have to say something. Sounds like OP got the discretionary treatment - don't show me your CHL because then you'll think carrying is officially sanctioned but if we both use a little common sense we'll get along just fine.
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by curmudgeon3 »

I tried to avoid using any of the RSO's names or their quotes in an open public forum like this. Maybe this thread should be closed ?
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djthomas
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by djthomas »

curmudgeon3 wrote:I tried to avoid using any of the RSO's names or their quotes in an open public forum like this. Maybe this thread should be closed ?
Why's that? The only RSO I named was the one who affirmed the reasoning behind the policy as it was some years ago. As to the other RSOs and what they may have said, nobody's named names but in any event they're all public employees carrying out their duties so what they say to a member of the public and how they conduct themselves is hardly private.

If you're concerned that someone at ODNR is going to read this thread and fire the whole staff, well, you probably should have requested it be deleted as soon as the first post was made. Besides for all we know maybe there has been an official or semi-official loosening of standards concerning CHLers and their EDCs if they behave themselves. To my earlier point if it's properly concealed and stays that way nobody would be able to enforce a rule to the contrary and it presents no danger to anybody.
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

It IS an odd balancing act.

ALL firearms should be unloaded and benched when folks are going downrange...BUT I have no problem with a HOLSTERED handgun remaining loaded when going downrange. In fact, I think a holster IS the proper place to "bench" a handgun.

Trying to explain that rationale to newbies and worrying about an undisciplined idiot drawing his or her handgun WHILE downrange would make for a job I wouldn't want.
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Re: Interesting Experience at ODNR Grand River

Post by Brian D. »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:It IS an odd balancing act.

ALL firearms should be unloaded and benched when folks are going downrange...BUT I have no problem with a HOLSTERED handgun remaining loaded when going downrange. In fact, I think a holster IS the proper place to "bench" a handgun.

Trying to explain that rationale to newbies and worrying about an undisciplined idiot drawing his or her handgun WHILE downrange would make for a job I wouldn't want.
Well said, and in not too many words, either.

When I use one of the public, non-Class A ranges in Ohio, or any similar shooting facility, one gun stays with me and loaded at all times. There may be posted rules disallowing that, but no range safety officer to enforce them. And, no range safety officer to watch anybody regardless of how careless or reckless they're being.
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