Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

There are 1600+ officers in the Cleveland police department.

Their organizational chart is just a bit complex: http://webapp.cleveland-oh.gov/aspnet/d ... gChart.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The distribution of this document was to "Administrative Units", which I would assume is NOT to street-level officers.

Pulling ANY document out of your pocket and showing it to an officer MAY or MAY NOT have an effect on that particular officer.

I personally don't think the stamps would matter, although I also think they detract from the document's 'official' looking format.


HERE is what I think is important: Being able to tell the officer that they are violating DIVISIONAL NOTICE 14-117

ANY Cleveland police officer would be able to independently verify the existence and content of that notice.

It would not matter if the notice was printed with or without an OFCC stamp or, like a "No guns" policy, if it were printed in lipstick on a cocktail napkin or recited verbally.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Tweed Ring »

Chuck wrote:
Tweed Ring wrote:I would no more believe a competent LEO to accept as factual, on face value, a document bearing an OFCC logo than I would believe the same competent LEO to accept as factual, on face value, a document bearing a logo from an anti-gun ownership group. We are dealing with the police, i.e. a para-military organization, staffed with bureaucrats.
My friend Dave says, "Cops don't have to learn, nor follow, the law. They have to learn and follow the policies of the departments that hire them"
If they've never heard of it, no matter what "it" is, they're not going to take a citizen's word for it


Tweed Ring wrote:Here’s the appropriate manner to get the word to the troops:
A private citizen can't do all that
Nor is it our place to do so,,,,
No, it's clearly the responsibility of the LEO upper echelon to manage and their their subordinate officers. If they don't, and there's a lawsuit, there could be a charge of failure to train.

The policies they have to follow are the directives and the rules created by upper management, and passed down through their chain-of-command to the line supervisors and rank-and file officers.

That's the way to lock it in.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Tweed Ring »

"HERE is what I think is important: Being able to tell the officer that they are violating DIVISIONAL NOTICE 14-117"

This is something which makes the bureaucratic heart flutter.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by TunnelRat »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
HERE is what I think is important: Being able to tell the officer that they are violating DIVISIONAL NOTICE 14-117
Bingo!
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by carmen fovozzo »

So telling the officer, hey man you don't freaken know the law and you are wrong, won't work to well ?

Or.Listen butt head leave me alone or I'll have your badge...Will that work ?
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MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

carmen fovozzo wrote:So telling the officer, hey man you don't freaken know the law and you are wrong, won't work to well ?

Or.Listen butt head leave me alone or I'll have your badge...Will that work ?
I'm not sure, Carmen.

Go ahead and try that second option and let us know how it goes.

:D
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by carmen fovozzo »

I may not be to bright but I'm not stupid... :)
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Voice »

Chuck wrote:
color of law wrote:
Chuck wrote:
Please address the question

How does the logo make it worthless?
What worth does it have with or with out?
A few years ago I and a couple, three or four others were open carrying on Fountain Square in downtown Cincinnati. We were approached by two officers. The one officer that challenged our right to be on the square open carrying was shocked that an Ohio Revised Code section existed that nullified the city's no weapons in the park signs.

One of the high tech open carriers proceeded to show the officer R.C. 9.68 on his smart phone. Though the officer had a pleasant demeanor he would not accept what appeared on the screen of my friends smart phone. The officer pulled out his smart phone and looked it up for himself. After reading it on his smart phone he bid us a good day.

Chuck, so are you saying that even though when the gods descended from the heavens and explained why the watermark may present a problem you still challenge the messenger?
Your example fails to show the significance of the document's worthiness based on the watermark

It's a simple question, really. I'm surprised you're having such trouble answering it
Whether it has a watermark for OFCC, The Brady Campaign, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the City of Cleveland has absolutely no bearing on how the document will be accepted (in court, or by the officer on the street).

Especially these days, anyone can print out something that *looks* authentic.
The one thing that will have any bearing will be whether or not the court or officer can validate whether the contents of that document are accurate and authentic. In court, this is done by getting a verified copy of the original. On the street this is done either from memory by the officer, or by calling in and requesting someone verify that the purported document reflects the actual document.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by dan dan the XD40 man »

Sort of off topic, but I once had a service manger at a Volvo dealer tell me that "Anyone with a computer can post stuff to the NHSTA website" when I was showing him an official recall notice that he hadnt heard about yet.

On topic, it's been cold for 7 months now, so I havent had much opportunity to open carry lately, and cannot attest to whether or not this memo has made a difference to the guys out there on the street. Glad it has been released, thank you OFCC for putting in the effort to obtain a copy.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Cleveland PD has been too busy confiscating children's basketball hoops to worry about OC'ers.

:P
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by dan dan the XD40 man »

Aint that the truth!

And dont forget about raiding that art gallery on 25th that had the audacity to give away free beer!
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by color of law »

Voice wrote:Whether it has a watermark for OFCC, The Brady Campaign, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the City of Cleveland has absolutely no bearing on how the document will be accepted (in court, or by the officer on the street).

Especially these days, anyone can print out something that *looks* authentic.
The one thing that will have any bearing will be whether or not the court or officer can validate whether the contents of that document are accurate and authentic. In court, this is done by getting a verified copy of the original. On the street this is done either from memory by the officer, or by calling in and requesting someone verify that the purported document reflects the actual document.
Your first paragraph should read: Whether it has a watermark for OFCC, The Brady Campaign, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the City of Cleveland has absolutely everything to do with how the document will be accepted (in court, or by the officer on the street).

As to your second paragraph you stated that “Especially these days, anyone can print out something that *looks* authentic.”
When you look at the OFCC copy it looks like it could have been fabricated. The police chief's signature is a typed cursive signature. In other words, even setting the watermark aside, a true copy that contains the police chiefs actual signature and some marking such as a “City of Cleveland Department of Law Received” date stamp would appear more convincing, IMHO

Of course my copy came from the City of Cleveland Department of Law with a date stamp of March 26, 2012. And my copy has the police chief's actual signature.

The next time I'm in Cleveland I'll carry my copy of the police chief's Divisional Notice 14-117.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Voice »

Color of law, your 'correction' is flat out incorrect.

An officer should not (and likely will not) accept as gospel any arbitrary piece of paper presented to him, for precisely the reasons I laid out. Likewise, a court of law will not accept as evidence a non-certified, in verified copy of a document when a certified, verified copy can be procured.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOYHING to do with whose watermark is or is not present on the copy carried by an arbitrary person on the street.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by TunnelRat »

Give it a rest. :roll:
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Voice wrote:Color of law, your 'correction' is flat out incorrect.

An officer should not (and likely will not) accept as gospel any arbitrary piece of paper presented to him, for precisely the reasons I laid out. Likewise, a court of law will not accept as evidence a non-certified, in verified copy of a document when a certified, verified copy can be procured.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOYHING to do with whose watermark is or is not present on the copy carried by an arbitrary person on the street.
But c'mon, it has the Chief's signature on it. I've worked 9 years as a dispatcher under two chiefs and couldn't tell you what either of their signatures looks like. I highly doubt an officer on the side of the road from a department of 1000+ officers knows what their chief's signature looks like.
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