Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
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- MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
There are 1600+ officers in the Cleveland police department.
Their organizational chart is just a bit complex: http://webapp.cleveland-oh.gov/aspnet/d ... gChart.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The distribution of this document was to "Administrative Units", which I would assume is NOT to street-level officers.
Pulling ANY document out of your pocket and showing it to an officer MAY or MAY NOT have an effect on that particular officer.
I personally don't think the stamps would matter, although I also think they detract from the document's 'official' looking format.
HERE is what I think is important: Being able to tell the officer that they are violating DIVISIONAL NOTICE 14-117
ANY Cleveland police officer would be able to independently verify the existence and content of that notice.
It would not matter if the notice was printed with or without an OFCC stamp or, like a "No guns" policy, if it were printed in lipstick on a cocktail napkin or recited verbally.
Their organizational chart is just a bit complex: http://webapp.cleveland-oh.gov/aspnet/d ... gChart.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The distribution of this document was to "Administrative Units", which I would assume is NOT to street-level officers.
Pulling ANY document out of your pocket and showing it to an officer MAY or MAY NOT have an effect on that particular officer.
I personally don't think the stamps would matter, although I also think they detract from the document's 'official' looking format.
HERE is what I think is important: Being able to tell the officer that they are violating DIVISIONAL NOTICE 14-117
ANY Cleveland police officer would be able to independently verify the existence and content of that notice.
It would not matter if the notice was printed with or without an OFCC stamp or, like a "No guns" policy, if it were printed in lipstick on a cocktail napkin or recited verbally.
MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
No, it's clearly the responsibility of the LEO upper echelon to manage and their their subordinate officers. If they don't, and there's a lawsuit, there could be a charge of failure to train.Chuck wrote:My friend Dave says, "Cops don't have to learn, nor follow, the law. They have to learn and follow the policies of the departments that hire them"Tweed Ring wrote:I would no more believe a competent LEO to accept as factual, on face value, a document bearing an OFCC logo than I would believe the same competent LEO to accept as factual, on face value, a document bearing a logo from an anti-gun ownership group. We are dealing with the police, i.e. a para-military organization, staffed with bureaucrats.
If they've never heard of it, no matter what "it" is, they're not going to take a citizen's word for it
A private citizen can't do all thatTweed Ring wrote:Here’s the appropriate manner to get the word to the troops:
Nor is it our place to do so,,,,
The policies they have to follow are the directives and the rules created by upper management, and passed down through their chain-of-command to the line supervisors and rank-and file officers.
That's the way to lock it in.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
"HERE is what I think is important: Being able to tell the officer that they are violating DIVISIONAL NOTICE 14-117"
This is something which makes the bureaucratic heart flutter.
This is something which makes the bureaucratic heart flutter.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
Bingo!MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
HERE is what I think is important: Being able to tell the officer that they are violating DIVISIONAL NOTICE 14-117
TunnelRat
"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago
When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago
When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
So telling the officer, hey man you don't freaken know the law and you are wrong, won't work to well ?
Or.Listen butt head leave me alone or I'll have your badge...Will that work ?
Or.Listen butt head leave me alone or I'll have your badge...Will that work ?
Life is full of God given coincidences..
A MEMBER OF OFCC SINCE 2004...
Thanks for shopping at Charmin Carmens
A MEMBER OF OFCC SINCE 2004...
Thanks for shopping at Charmin Carmens
- MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
I'm not sure, Carmen.carmen fovozzo wrote:So telling the officer, hey man you don't freaken know the law and you are wrong, won't work to well ?
Or.Listen butt head leave me alone or I'll have your badge...Will that work ?
Go ahead and try that second option and let us know how it goes.
MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
I may not be to bright but I'm not stupid...
Life is full of God given coincidences..
A MEMBER OF OFCC SINCE 2004...
Thanks for shopping at Charmin Carmens
A MEMBER OF OFCC SINCE 2004...
Thanks for shopping at Charmin Carmens
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
Whether it has a watermark for OFCC, The Brady Campaign, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the City of Cleveland has absolutely no bearing on how the document will be accepted (in court, or by the officer on the street).Chuck wrote:Your example fails to show the significance of the document's worthiness based on the watermarkcolor of law wrote:A few years ago I and a couple, three or four others were open carrying on Fountain Square in downtown Cincinnati. We were approached by two officers. The one officer that challenged our right to be on the square open carrying was shocked that an Ohio Revised Code section existed that nullified the city's no weapons in the park signs.Chuck wrote:
Please address the question
How does the logo make it worthless?
What worth does it have with or with out?
One of the high tech open carriers proceeded to show the officer R.C. 9.68 on his smart phone. Though the officer had a pleasant demeanor he would not accept what appeared on the screen of my friends smart phone. The officer pulled out his smart phone and looked it up for himself. After reading it on his smart phone he bid us a good day.
Chuck, so are you saying that even though when the gods descended from the heavens and explained why the watermark may present a problem you still challenge the messenger?
It's a simple question, really. I'm surprised you're having such trouble answering it
Especially these days, anyone can print out something that *looks* authentic.
The one thing that will have any bearing will be whether or not the court or officer can validate whether the contents of that document are accurate and authentic. In court, this is done by getting a verified copy of the original. On the street this is done either from memory by the officer, or by calling in and requesting someone verify that the purported document reflects the actual document.
- dan dan the XD40 man
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
Sort of off topic, but I once had a service manger at a Volvo dealer tell me that "Anyone with a computer can post stuff to the NHSTA website" when I was showing him an official recall notice that he hadnt heard about yet.
On topic, it's been cold for 7 months now, so I havent had much opportunity to open carry lately, and cannot attest to whether or not this memo has made a difference to the guys out there on the street. Glad it has been released, thank you OFCC for putting in the effort to obtain a copy.
On topic, it's been cold for 7 months now, so I havent had much opportunity to open carry lately, and cannot attest to whether or not this memo has made a difference to the guys out there on the street. Glad it has been released, thank you OFCC for putting in the effort to obtain a copy.
Poop!
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
Cleveland PD has been too busy confiscating children's basketball hoops to worry about OC'ers.
MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
Aint that the truth!
And dont forget about raiding that art gallery on 25th that had the audacity to give away free beer!
And dont forget about raiding that art gallery on 25th that had the audacity to give away free beer!
Poop!
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
Your first paragraph should read: Whether it has a watermark for OFCC, The Brady Campaign, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the City of Cleveland has absolutely everything to do with how the document will be accepted (in court, or by the officer on the street).Voice wrote:Whether it has a watermark for OFCC, The Brady Campaign, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the City of Cleveland has absolutely no bearing on how the document will be accepted (in court, or by the officer on the street).
Especially these days, anyone can print out something that *looks* authentic.
The one thing that will have any bearing will be whether or not the court or officer can validate whether the contents of that document are accurate and authentic. In court, this is done by getting a verified copy of the original. On the street this is done either from memory by the officer, or by calling in and requesting someone verify that the purported document reflects the actual document.
As to your second paragraph you stated that “Especially these days, anyone can print out something that *looks* authentic.”
When you look at the OFCC copy it looks like it could have been fabricated. The police chief's signature is a typed cursive signature. In other words, even setting the watermark aside, a true copy that contains the police chiefs actual signature and some marking such as a “City of Cleveland Department of Law Received” date stamp would appear more convincing, IMHO
Of course my copy came from the City of Cleveland Department of Law with a date stamp of March 26, 2012. And my copy has the police chief's actual signature.
The next time I'm in Cleveland I'll carry my copy of the police chief's Divisional Notice 14-117.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
Color of law, your 'correction' is flat out incorrect.
An officer should not (and likely will not) accept as gospel any arbitrary piece of paper presented to him, for precisely the reasons I laid out. Likewise, a court of law will not accept as evidence a non-certified, in verified copy of a document when a certified, verified copy can be procured.
This has ABSOLUTELY NOYHING to do with whose watermark is or is not present on the copy carried by an arbitrary person on the street.
An officer should not (and likely will not) accept as gospel any arbitrary piece of paper presented to him, for precisely the reasons I laid out. Likewise, a court of law will not accept as evidence a non-certified, in verified copy of a document when a certified, verified copy can be procured.
This has ABSOLUTELY NOYHING to do with whose watermark is or is not present on the copy carried by an arbitrary person on the street.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
Give it a rest.
TunnelRat
"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago
When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago
When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
- JediSkipdogg
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released
But c'mon, it has the Chief's signature on it. I've worked 9 years as a dispatcher under two chiefs and couldn't tell you what either of their signatures looks like. I highly doubt an officer on the side of the road from a department of 1000+ officers knows what their chief's signature looks like.Voice wrote:Color of law, your 'correction' is flat out incorrect.
An officer should not (and likely will not) accept as gospel any arbitrary piece of paper presented to him, for precisely the reasons I laid out. Likewise, a court of law will not accept as evidence a non-certified, in verified copy of a document when a certified, verified copy can be procured.
This has ABSOLUTELY NOYHING to do with whose watermark is or is not present on the copy carried by an arbitrary person on the street.
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.