Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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Tweed Ring
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Tweed Ring »

I think Cleveland Police would be more amenable after viewing something in a familiar format, rather than viewing a document from the private sector.

Just a thought, as I rarely open carry, and I more rarely go to Cleveland.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by pleasantguywhopacks »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I found this un-marked version. I hope it helps.

http://www.ohionets.com/stuff/cleveland ... y-memo.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting read..why haven't the removed mention of carry of rifle,shotgun or handgun from CCO 627.10a if its clearly against 9.68 that they are creating this memo about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOxXpNBdrVE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

I would imagine it has a lot to do with the mayor and council.

Cincinnati would not amend their laws under their previous mayor, but the current mayor and council had them gone in just a few months.
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Werz
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Werz »

pleasantguywhopacks wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I found this un-marked version. I hope it helps.

http://www.ohionets.com/stuff/cleveland ... y-memo.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting read..why haven't the removed mention of carry of rifle,shotgun or handgun from CCO 627.10a if its clearly against 9.68 that they are creating this memo about?
Because urban progressives convince themselves that all this wicked gun mania will come to an end, that R.C. 9.68 will be repealed, and that when that happens, they will already have in place the appropriate ordinance.

Note that the Ohio Revised Code has specific and detailed provisions for peace warrants, but you'll need to look and hard for a judge who will issue one.
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"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
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Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Werz
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Werz »

<sigh> Children ... children ... children ...

Let's consider what documents will actually be considered "official" ...
"A duplicate is admissible to the same extent as an original unless (1) a genuine question is raised as to the authenticity of the original or (2) in the circumstances it would be unfair to admit the duplicate in lieu of the original." Evid.R. 1003.
If there is no genuine issue as to the original text, a copy, or a copy of a copy of a copy, is just as good as the original, even if it has some itty-bitty OFCC stamps on it. However ...
"The contents of an official record, or of a document authorized to be recorded or filed and actually recorded or filed, including data compilations in any form if otherwise admissible, may be proved by copy, certified as correct in accordance with Rule 902, Civ.R. 44, Crim.R. 27 or testified to be correct by a witness who has compared it with the original." Evid.R. 1005.
"Extrinsic evidence of authenticity as a condition precedent to admissibility is not required with respect to *** [a] copy of an official record or report or entry therein, or of a document authorized by law to be recorded or filed and actually recorded or filed in a public office, including data compilations in any form, certified as correct by the custodian or other person authorized to make the certification, by certificate complying with paragraph (1), (2), or (3) of this rule or complying with any law of a jurisdiction, state or federal, or rule prescribed by the Supreme Court of Ohio." Evid.R. 902(4).
If it's going to be used in court, it needs to have a certification signed by a custodian of records, or a custodian of records needs to be subpoenaed to court. It may look official, but without the proper authentication, it is inadmissible unless the other side stipulates to its authenticity.

What will an officer on the street find acceptable? Whatever the officer thinks will keep him/her out of trouble.

But please feel free to carry on with the bickering ...
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"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Thanks Werz, I was going to type something like that but didn't have the lingo down. I do alot of discovery requests for court and I have to validate videos submitted as evidence and a few occasions had to send letters down explaining how the video was retrieved from our system to state that it was authentic. Our juvenile court prosecutors won't even allow anything from our records submitted as evidence that was obtained via public records instead of discovery. I believe alot of defense attorneys were trying that for some unknown reason to give them a leg up.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Werz »

JediSkipdogg wrote:Our juvenile court prosecutors won't even allow anything from our records submitted as evidence that was obtained via public records instead of discovery. I believe alot of defense attorneys were trying that for some unknown reason to give them a leg up.
Defense attorneys try to defeat the new Criminal Rule 16 reciprocal discovery by getting what they can through a public records request and not filing a written discovery request, which would trigger reciprocal discovery.

The Ohio Supreme Court shut down that "back door" approach about a year ago:
"When an accused directly or indirectly makes a public records request for information that could have been obtained from the state though discovery, that public records request is the equivalent of a demand for discovery, and a reciprocal duty of disclosure arises in accordance with Crim.R. 16." State v. Athon, 136 Ohio St.3d 43, 2013-Ohio-1956, paragraph 3 of the syllabus.
Judges don't like "trial by ambush" coming from the defense any more than they like it coming from the prosecution.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Chuck
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Chuck »

color of law wrote:quote me, quote my
Please address the question

How does the logo make it worthless?
What worth does it have with or with out?
Ain't activism fun?

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And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by color of law »

Chuck wrote:
color of law wrote:quote me, quote my
Please address the question

How does the logo make it worthless?
What worth does it have with or with out?
A few years ago I and a couple, three or four others were open carrying on Fountain Square in downtown Cincinnati. We were approached by two officers. The one officer that challenged our right to be on the square open carrying was shocked that an Ohio Revised Code section existed that nullified the city's no weapons in the park signs.

One of the high tech open carriers proceeded to show the officer R.C. 9.68 on his smart phone. Though the officer had a pleasant demeanor he would not accept what appeared on the screen of my friends smart phone. The officer pulled out his smart phone and looked it up for himself. After reading it on his smart phone he bid us a good day.

Chuck, so are you saying that even though when the gods descended from the heavens and explained why the watermark may present a problem you still challenge the messenger?
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by NavyChief »

color of law wrote:
Chuck wrote:How does the logo make it worthless?
Chuck, so are you saying that even though when the gods descended from the heavens and explained why the watermark may present a problem you still challenge the messenger?
Based on your example, the question stands.
Total repeal of ALL firearms/weapons laws at the local, state and federal levels. Period. Wipe the slate clean.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Chuck »

color of law wrote:
Chuck wrote:
color of law wrote:quote me, quote my
Please address the question

How does the logo make it worthless?
What worth does it have with or with out?
A few years ago I and a couple, three or four others were open carrying on Fountain Square in downtown Cincinnati. We were approached by two officers. The one officer that challenged our right to be on the square open carrying was shocked that an Ohio Revised Code section existed that nullified the city's no weapons in the park signs.

One of the high tech open carriers proceeded to show the officer R.C. 9.68 on his smart phone. Though the officer had a pleasant demeanor he would not accept what appeared on the screen of my friends smart phone. The officer pulled out his smart phone and looked it up for himself. After reading it on his smart phone he bid us a good day.

Chuck, so are you saying that even though when the gods descended from the heavens and explained why the watermark may present a problem you still challenge the messenger?
Your example fails to show the significance of the document's worthiness based on the watermark

It's a simple question, really. I'm surprised you're having such trouble answering it
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And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by JediSkipdogg »

I'm third in line to still be puzzled. The officer probably still won't take the document at face value till he can go back to his PD and get an original copy.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Chuck »

JediSkipdogg wrote:I'm third in line to still be puzzled. The officer probably still won't take the document at face value till he can go back to his PD and get an original copy.
I think the exact opposite would happen
I think he would have received that memo himself and / or it would have been discussed during roll call or whatever
While he may be surprised to learn that some of we lowly citizens know of it, I would be VERY surprised if he were to deny his training
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Tweed Ring »

I would no more believe a competent LEO to accept as factual, on face value, a document bearing an OFCC logo than I would believe the same competent LEO to accept as factual, on face value, a document bearing a logo from an anti-gun ownership group. We are dealing with the police, i.e. a para-military organization, staffed with bureaucrats.
Here’s the appropriate manner to get the word to the troops:

1.) Lectures at the pre-service academy, documenting same.
2.) Similar lectures during in-service training, documenting same.
3.) Posting hard copies of the change memorandum/direction in conspicuous places, documenting same.
4.) Distributing written handouts, documenting same.
5.) Reading the change memorandum/direction at each roll call for each shift for four (4) consecutive days, with follow up for any officers on sick leave, vacation, return from disability, etc. documenting same.
6.) Distribution of the change memorandum/direction by electronic means, documenting same.
7.) Etc. etc. documenting same.
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Re: Cleveland Police Open Carry Policy Released

Post by Chuck »

Tweed Ring wrote:I would no more believe a competent LEO to accept as factual, on face value, a document bearing an OFCC logo than I would believe the same competent LEO to accept as factual, on face value, a document bearing a logo from an anti-gun ownership group. We are dealing with the police, i.e. a para-military organization, staffed with bureaucrats.
My friend Dave says, "Cops don't have to learn, nor follow, the law. They have to learn and follow the policies of the departments that hire them"
If they've never heard of it, no matter what "it" is, they're not going to take a citizen's word for it


Tweed Ring wrote:Here’s the appropriate manner to get the word to the troops:
A private citizen can't do all that
Nor is it our place to do so,,,,
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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