FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry stop

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JustaShooter
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by JustaShooter »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Putting a suppressor on a gun is not a crime, if you follow the law.

There has to be RAS that you have BROKEN THE LAW before they can stop you!

They can NOT stop you and THEN check and see if you are breaking the law!
Depends on how the law is written, right? In some cases the law is written so that an act is illegal and there are affirmative defenses to the crime - for example, I believe in TN carrying a weapon with intent to go armed is a crime and a concealed weapon permit provides an exception to the crime. As I understand it, LEO can stop you for the act of carrying and you have to show your license to prove you are excepted.

So what I'm saying is that I think the general statement you made is correct but the specific law may be written is such a way that provides RAS by the simple act of possessing a suppressed weapon. Now, I have no idea if in Ohio having a suppressed firearm is a crime that has an exception that you have filed the proper paperwork.

One of the (many) things about the law I'm not clear on is when something falls into that category. Over in OCDO we were talking recently about something similar, where a police officer saw a poorly concealed firearm and made a stop, and I think the conclusion we came to was that concealing a weapon provided RAS for the stop the way the law is written in Ohio.
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by BB62 »

JustaShooter wrote:...for example, I believe in TN carrying a weapon with intent to go armed is a crime...
Carrying a weapon with intent to go armed? :shock:

Is that like wearing shoes, socks, pants and a shirt with intent to go clothed?
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by JustaShooter »

BB62 wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:...for example, I believe in TN carrying a weapon with intent to go armed is a crime...
Carrying a weapon with intent to go armed? :shock:

Is that like wearing shoes, socks, pants and a shirt with intent to go clothed?
Hey, I don't write 'em, I just research 'em!

TN 39 - 17 - 1311
It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any weapon prohibited by § 39 - 17 - 1302(a)
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by WayneB »

JustaShooter wrote:
BB62 wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:...for example, I believe in TN carrying a weapon with intent to go armed is a crime...
Carrying a weapon with intent to go armed? :shock:

Is that like wearing shoes, socks, pants and a shirt with intent to go clothed?
Hey, I don't write 'em, I just research 'em!

TN 39 - 17 - 1311
It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any weapon prohibited by § 39 - 17 - 1302(a)
"Why, yes officer - I realize that I am possessing and concealing a weapon, but I had no intention of going armed.".

Ya, might have to think through that a bit more.
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by Splat!! »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
Splat!! wrote:...They took him into custody because of not knowing if gun or silencer is legal or not...
This is exactly right. And THAT is why it is exactly wrong.

I'm not trying to defend Mr. Embody, but...

In Ohio, a law enforcement officer cannot stop me just to see if I have a valid driver license.

They have to have RAS of criminal activity.

Driving a car is not a crime, if you follow the law.

Owning a gun is not a crime, if you follow the law.

Carrying a gun is not a crime, if you follow the law.

Putting a suppressor on a gun is not a crime, if you follow the law.

There has to be RAS that you have BROKEN THE LAW before they can stop you!

They can NOT stop you and THEN check and see if you are breaking the law!
I have not fully read or researched Embody's issue.....But I am willing to gamble there was phone call placed prior to his stop, regardless of whether he was legal or not....

If I call in a "phone tip" that MWSY could be driving without a license, RAS is confirmed...Once the RAS is confirmed, the inquiry begins.....I cannot see where at that time, when you are not breaking any law that going silent and refusing to state facts will benefit you. I am not against your thinking, just think some ways are less friction in today's political climate....

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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by deanimator »

Splat!! wrote:I am not against your thinking, just think some ways are less friction in today's political climate....
I'm for "friction" all day, every day if it protects my legal rights.

I guess it depends upon how much you trust the knowledge and motives of the police. In that regard, I'll just say that I grew up in Chicago.

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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by Splat!! »

deanimator wrote:
Splat!! wrote:I am not against your thinking, just think some ways are less friction in today's political climate....
I'm for "friction" all day, every day if it protects my legal rights.

I guess it depends upon how much you trust the knowledge and motives of the police. In that regard, I'll just say that I grew up in Chicago.

"Am I free to leave?"
"No?"
"Then I have nothing further to say without benefit of counsel."

I also carry at least one running voice recorder every time I leave the house armed.
Not a problem....Just have the means to follow through and not plead out...Standing your ground for what you believe in, is great provided you take it to end and achieve the desired result...Engaging in a battle without a plan or the tools to win achieves nothing on our end but bad publicly.
"Our government... teaches the whole people by its example. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy."
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by BB62 »

Splat!! wrote:...If I call in a "phone tip" that MWSY could be driving without a license, RAS is confirmed...Once the RAS is confirmed, the inquiry begins...
Methinks you need to do some more research on whether or not such "tips" provide RAS.

Splat!! wrote:...I cannot see where at that time, when you are not breaking any law that going silent and refusing to state facts will benefit you. I am not against your thinking, just think some ways are less friction in today's political climate...
Friction is a necessary and expected part of asserting one's rights, whichever ones they might be.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by BB62 »

Splat!! wrote:...Engaging in a battle without a plan or the tools to win achieves nothing on our end but bad publicly. (publicity)
It all depends, but I'll partially agree.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

An anonymous tip won't get you RAS, but it's enough for a LEO to go take a look. Look, not detain. If they see something that gives them RAS when they look, fine.

As far as friction, that one is entirely up to the LEO that stops me. I don't intend to be an a-hole and, so far, I have not had the need.

"Just let me see your ID" becomes "Just let me pat you down" becomes "Just let me search your vehicle" becomes "Just let me search your residence" becomes "Just let me do a cavity search" becomes "Just let me take you to the hospital and have a medical professional shove a camera up your lower orifice(s) to check for contraband".

Sounds extreme until you realize that last one has already happened.

Yeah. I'll choose friction.

At least until they bring out the endoscope. Then I choose lube. :shock:
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by Werz »

When it comes to reasonable articulable suspicion under the Fourth Amendment, the only opinions that really matter are those of the people who are authorized to give those opinions. Under the United States Constitution, that authority is vested in the "Supreme Court and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish." U.S. Const. Art. 3, Sec. 1 and 2. That means the top authority goes to the United States Supreme Court, and directly below, to the United States Circuit Courts of Appeals.

Regarding Mr. Embody:
Embody does not quarrel with this accounting of what happened. To his mind, all that matters is that carrying an AK-47 pistol in a state park is legal under Tennessee law; the gun's resemblance to an assault rifle, the conspicuous arming of it, his military clothing and the concerns of passers-by add nothing. But the constitutional question is whether the officers had reasonable suspicion of a crime, not whether a crime occurred. Otherwise, all failed investigatory stops would lead to successful § 1983 actions. Having worked hard to appear suspicious in an armed-and-loaded visit to the park, Embody cannot cry foul after park rangers, to say nothing of passers-by, took the bait. The officers stopped him only as long as it took to investigate the legitimacy of the weapon and, at his insistence, bring the supervisor to the park. No Fourth Amendment violation occurred. Embody v. Ward, 695 F.3d 577, 581. (6th Cir. 2012).
Keep in mind that the Sixth Circuit includes Ohio as well as Tennessee.

Regarding reasonable articulable suspicion in general, everyone wants to acknowledge this:
Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status. More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. United States v. Black,707 F.3d 531, 540 (4th Cir. 2013).
But nobody wants to acknowledge this:
Based on McRae's admission that he was carrying a handgun in his waistband, the officers had reasonable suspicion to believe that McRae was committing a crime under Florida law - carrying a concealed weapon. *** Under Florida law, " [a] person who carries a concealed firearm on or about his person commits a felony of the third degree." *** Notably, the possession of a valid permit for a concealed weapon is not related to the elements of the crime, but rather is an affirmative defense. (Citations and footnotes omitted.) United States v. Lewis, 674 F.3d 1298, 1304 (11th Cir. 2012).
Bottom line: When a statute describes an offense, followed by "this section does not apply to," the initial provision constitutes the elements of the offense, and the subsequent provisions constitute an affirmative defense, placing a burden on the defendant to establish the same. Sometimes, the affirmative defense can be established without a trip to the courtroom, such as establishing the possession of a concealed handgun license in response to suspicion of carrying concealed weapons or possession of a firearm on D-permit liquor premises, or establishing NFA registration in response to a suspicion of illegal possession of a dangerous ordnance (silencer). Nevertheless, under Lewis, the rule of law is :
The Supreme Court has made it abundantly clear that, although an individual may ultimately be engaged in conduct that is perfectly lawful - as turned out to be the case with McRae - officers may "detain the individual[ ] to resolve the ambiguity." Id.
I'm quite sure that some folks don't want to hear that, but it doesn't make it any less the truth.
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by Werz »

When it comes to reasonable articulable suspicion under the Fourth Amendment, the only opinions that really matter are those of the people who are authorized to give those opinions. Under the United States Constitution, that authority is vested in the "Supreme Court and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish." U.S. Const. Art. 3, Sec. 1 and 2. That means the top authority goes to the United States Supreme Court, and directly below, to the United States Circuit Courts of Appeals.

Regarding Mr. Embody:
Embody does not quarrel with this accounting of what happened. To his mind, all that matters is that carrying an AK-47 pistol in a state park is legal under Tennessee law; the gun's resemblance to an assault rifle, the conspicuous arming of it, his military clothing and the concerns of passers-by add nothing. But the constitutional question is whether the officers had reasonable suspicion of a crime, not whether a crime occurred. Otherwise, all failed investigatory stops would lead to successful § 1983 actions. Having worked hard to appear suspicious in an armed-and-loaded visit to the park, Embody cannot cry foul after park rangers, to say nothing of passers-by, took the bait. The officers stopped him only as long as it took to investigate the legitimacy of the weapon and, at his insistence, bring the supervisor to the park. No Fourth Amendment violation occurred. Embody v. Ward, 695 F.3d 577, 581. (6th Cir. 2012).
Keep in mind that the Sixth Circuit includes Ohio as well as Tennessee.

Regarding reasonable articulable suspicion in general, everyone wants to acknowledge this:
Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status. More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. United States v. Black,707 F.3d 531, 540 (4th Cir. 2013).
But nobody wants to acknowledge this:
Based on McRae's admission that he was carrying a handgun in his waistband, the officers had reasonable suspicion to believe that McRae was committing a crime under Florida law - carrying a concealed weapon. *** Under Florida law, " [a] person who carries a concealed firearm on or about his person commits a felony of the third degree." *** Notably, the possession of a valid permit for a concealed weapon is not related to the elements of the crime, but rather is an affirmative defense. (Citations and footnotes omitted.) United States v. Lewis, 674 F.3d 1298, 1304 (11th Cir. 2012).
Bottom line: When a statute describes an offense, followed by "this section does not apply to," the initial provision constitutes the elements of the offense, and the subsequent provisions constitute an affirmative defense, placing a burden on the defendant to establish the same. Sometimes, the affirmative defense can be established without a trip to the courtroom, such as establishing the possession of a concealed handgun license in response to suspicion of carrying concealed weapons or possession of a firearm on D-permit liquor premises, or establishing NFA registration in response to a suspicion of illegal possession of a dangerous ordnance (silencer). Nevertheless, under Lewis, the rule of law is :
The Supreme Court has made it abundantly clear that, although an individual may ultimately be engaged in conduct that is perfectly lawful - as turned out to be the case with McRae - officers may "detain the individual[ ] to resolve the ambiguity." Id.
I'm quite sure that some folks don't want to hear that, but it doesn't make it any less the truth.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by JustaShooter »

Thank you, Werz, for saying so well what I haltingly attempted to convey in my post. In fact you said it so well I read it twice! :wink:
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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by BB62 »

JustaShooter wrote:Thank you, Werz, for saying so well what I haltingly attempted to convey in my post. In fact you said it so well I read it twice! :wink:
The second post was definitely more clear than the first!

Not necessarily more accurate, just more clear. :wink:
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: FOP complains about HB 203 removing OC as RAS for Terry

Post by curmudgeon3 »

Not a problem....Just have the means to follow through and not plead out...Standing your ground for what you believe in, is great provided you take it to end and achieve the desired result...Engaging in a battle without a plan or the tools to win achieves nothing on our end but bad publicity.
To be realistic, substitute the word "$$$money$$$", then brace yourself for a severe dent in your savings account.
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