Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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Werz
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Werz »

Tweed Ring wrote:Remember, it's not what a pol says that's important. Rather, it's what they do, that is meaningful.
"Say" is a bit fuzzy in that regard. A written OAG opinion is published and does carry some weight. So, to some extent, "say" = "do."

Naturally, what a court "says" is more persuasive and constitutes rule of law. Still, law enforcement is likely to rely heavily on an Attorney General opinion. And I haven't seen anyone yet who is willing to risk a criminal charge in order to get a court's opinion.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Tweed Ring »

Werz wrote:
Tweed Ring wrote:Remember, it's not what a pol says that's important. Rather, it's what they do, that is meaningful.
"Say" is a bit fuzzy in that regard. A written OAG opinion is published and does carry some weight. So, to some extent, "say" = "do."

Naturally, what a court "says" is more persuasive and constitutes rule of law. Still, law enforcement is likely to rely heavily on an Attorney General opinion. And I haven't seen anyone yet who is willing to risk a criminal charge in order to get a court's opinion.
I'm addressing their verbal commentary, e.g. campaign promises, statements made at pressers, etc. Paper trail is a bit more binding.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

Werz wrote:...And I haven't seen anyone yet who is willing to risk a criminal charge in order to get a court's opinion.
I have openly and freely volunteered to risk baseless charges for open carry on OSU property and on statehouse grounds. I only require that someone else fund my defense. I would also like that person or group to fund any appeals, up to and including Ohio and US Supreme Courts.

Daycares, pre-schools and churches are often private businesses and on private property. I fully respect their right to deny firearms, open or concealed.

If it's on school property, or in a school zone not on private property, there's no carry allowed (CHL exception for pick-up/drop-off of students).

A church, daycare or daycare IN a church, that is NOT posted, IMHO you can LEGALLY open carry UNTIL you are asked to leave.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Tweed Ring »

If one is a true believer, run it. Why would anyone be so presumptuous as to ask other parties to fund one's defense?
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by pirateguy191 »

Tweed Ring wrote:If one is a true believer, run it. Why would anyone be so presumptuous as to ask other parties to fund one's defense?
Seriously? Does one really feel the need to ask one's self, or others, that question? Come on dude we all know you're smart. Your thought provoking posts sometimes provoke the wrong thoughts.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Tweed Ring »

Thank you for your kind compliment. I stand by my comment. I don't ask people to pay my tab - I expect the same from others.

If someone wants to knowingly and willingly break the law, what is the suggested/recommended amount of my contribution to that individual's defense? If such is noted, how does the hoi polloi attempt to collect the amount?
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by slowquest »

MWSY is saying that he is willing to risk his freedom, if someone else is willing to risk their fortune. And he is also saying that he is willing to do this for OUR sake along with his. He, as I, believes that OPEN carry is lawful and legal per ORC in these instances. He's willing to risk, and asks the same of us, to get a binding court decision on this fact.

I have little fortune to contribute to this cause, but would be willing to donate if such a fund were established.


ETA: TW, don't you frequently advise giving of our fortunes to "grease the wheels" of your parties lobbyists? I believe you have a very recent post expounding the merits of giving of such to the NRA. What's the difference? The only that I see is that MWSY is actually willing to risk something meaningful to the cause. Not just collect of someone's fortune to line their treasure chest. While I'm thankful for the work that is done by both your party and the NRA I'm more thankful for souls such as MWSY.
Last edited by slowquest on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by pirateguy191 »

Tweed Ring wrote:Thank you for your kind compliment. I stand by my comment. I don't ask people to pay my tab - I expect the same from others.

If someone wants to knowingly and willingly break the law, what is the suggested/recommended amount of my contribution to that individual's defense? If such is noted, how does the hoi polloi attempt to collect the amount?
Where is the proof that he would be knowingly and willingly breaking the law?
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Tweed Ring »

I don't know. I interpreted his saying he will buck the system if someone else pays the freight. I said that I'm not willing to contribute. My choice. It's that simple to me.

However, if others choose to so donate to such a project, that's clearly their choice. Create the fund. Donate to the fund. Seek the donations from others. Participate in the process.

Choice is a wonderful thing, is it not?
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Werz »

Tweed Ring wrote:I don't know. I interpreted his saying he will buck the system if someone else pays the freight. I said that I'm not willing to contribute. My choice. It's that simple to me.

However, if others choose to so donate to such a project, that's clearly their choice. Create the fund. Donate to the fund. Seek the donations from others. Participate in the process.

Choice is a wonderful thing, is it not?
Exactly. One may do as one will, being aware of the risks. I will offer my opinion on the likelihood of success, based on the existing facts. But I do not accept implications that I have an obligation to contribute to the defense of a case which I believe is futile under the existing law.

And as to the query of pirateguy191 as to what law may be broken, I have already laid out an analysis of how that could be prosecuted. You may read it here. MyWifeSaidYes might argue as a defense, "Well, I don't interpret the law that way!" Too bad. His history as an activist, both online and in communications with government entities, would be easy to establish, as would his clear knowledge that his interpretation of the law was very questionable. Ignorantia juris non excusat.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Tweed Ring »

Don't like the existing law? Lobby the legislature for change. Or, run enough winning candidates so these newly elected persons can effect the desired changes.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Tweed Ring »

slowquest wrote:MWSY is saying that he is willing to risk his freedom, if someone else is willing to risk their fortune. And he is also saying that he is willing to do this for OUR sake along with his. He, as I, believes that OPEN carry is lawful and legal per ORC in these instances. He's willing to risk, and asks the same of us, to get a binding court decision on this fact.

I have little fortune to contribute to this cause, but would be willing to donate if such a fund were established.


ETA: TW, don't you frequently advise giving of our fortunes to "grease the wheels" of your parties lobbyists? I believe you have a very recent post expounding the merits of giving of such to the NRA. What's the difference? The only that I see is that MWSY is actually willing to risk something meaningful to the cause. Not just collect of someone's fortune to line their treasure chest. While I'm thankful for the work that is done by both your party and the NRA I'm more thankful for souls such as MWSY.
Fortune is a bit strong, but I do hope everyone will donate to the pro-gun rights lobbying efforts on a state wide and/or national level, be it through the NRA, or be it to any other effective gun rights organization. Lobbying is an activity protected by the First Amendment.

Effective lobbying of our elected officials is different than breaking the law, and hoping someone else, or a collection of others, will pay the freight for this experiment.

Frankly, I do not care what the gentleman does in terms of his activism; he must, however, be ready to pay the consequences, both in terms of time and money. Clearly his choice.

Just as I do not ask others to pay for my brand of activism, I shall decide if, and when, and how much I shall accept the activism of others.

Here's an example: last year, some folks herein were going to march, if memory serves, on the City of Akron, or some other political subdivision in Ohio. I advised them I would not march, but I would send a check to defer lunch, etc. That was clearly my choice.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by slowquest »

TW, after stepping away from the computer for awhile and then coming back and rereading this thread, I feel I must apoligize to you. My remarks came off as very much stronger than I intended them to. I respect and admire the work that you and others have done to further OUR cause.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by Tweed Ring »

slowquest wrote:TW, after stepping away from the computer for awhile and then coming back and rereading this thread, I feel I must apoligize to you. My remarks came off as very much stronger than I intended them to. I respect and admire the work that you and others have done to further OUR cause.
Absolutely no need to apologize to me. I am a gruff, opinionated individual, and that's difficult for some people to take. But, I do my lobbying in a laid back manner; I deal personally with elected officials when the chance offers itself.

I have open carried in the past, as a job requirement. I went into some pretty sketchy places, and I always kept the inside of my right wrist against the pistol grip. Periodically, I had issues from people.

I open carried in Iraq, and I always kept the M-9 clamped under my arm in a shoulder holster. Periodically, crazed Iraqi's grabbed at the weapon. I am a product of my experiences and I don't favor open carry.

Recently I met with some pro-gun pols. I shall work for their election if they choose to run for higher office. I believe I am more effective in that role than open carrying, or creating legal issues.

Again, absolutely no harm... no foul.
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Re: Daycare/churches & avoiding "half-concealed" carry

Post by TunnelRat »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote: I have openly and freely volunteered to risk baseless charges for open carry on OSU property and on statehouse grounds. I only require that someone else fund my defense. I would also like that person or group to fund any appeals, up to and including Ohio and US Supreme Courts.
I frankly admire your courage. After a quarter century of the practice of law, I tend to have a bit less trust that the court system, as currently administrated, is going to produce the sort of result for which one might hope. Determining the outcome of a politically charged, and legally unclear, criminal charge, is often much like predicting next year's Superbowl winner -- just way more expensive.

Costs involved would likely be in the tens of thousands of dollars, even before you made it to trial. The actual trial work used to be billed in multiples of $10,000 per half day; I have no doubt the rate has increased substantially in recent years. Appellate review also tends to be even more expensive (and just as difficult to predict).

It would be nice to have a Bill Gates or Warren Buffet to finance our endeavors, but we can hardly get some posters to pony up even $25 to become a member or a site supporter... :|
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