dealing with cops on OCing..again !

[soldier24]

I'm sorry if this is posted somewhere else in the forum. I will try to ask this question the best I can be typing.
I was told if I was walking down the street open carrying a weapon( or not ) and a police officer randomly comes up to me and asks for on I.D. , by law I dont have to give it to him? also I dont even have to stop and talk to him because I have not committed a crime for him to even come up to me and stop me ? I just want to make 100% sure I am not doing anything illegal if I am stopped randomly somewhere open carrying and I refuse to give him my info and refuse to let him harass me about open carring as he does a "background" on me and my fire arm? I really dont want to push the limits too far but I am so sick of the cops/sheriffs around fairfield and fairfield township harassing me and other people that OC and telling us they will arrest us if we keep doing and how illegal the act is.

I hope this all made sense. lol

[wkdravenna]

SIr, do you have a handy dandy voice recorder of some sort to document such occorence ? If not its just you're word vs there's and people are trained in government schools to believe them over you.

That way if something happens you have documentation.

The people here on the forum, I am expecting will tell you that you need to read up in the open carry forum past threads.. That you need to know what to do.. You're right one choice you could make is to assert you're self and ask if you're being detained and if you're not stating then you are free to go ? There are different ways to go about it.

[soldier24]

I do need to start carrying a voice recorder with you are right on that on. But do I have to let the officer know I have it? I had a run in with the police in fairfield a while ago, I wasnt arrested but I let them run my drivers license and the ssn on my pistol. I tried to work with them and all it got me was threats to get arrest. I was let go with no issues ...but still.

[whoownsyou]

I do need to start carrying a voice recorder with you are right on that on. But do I have to let the officer know I have it?

No. Ohio is a single party state, so as long as you are party to the conversation you are recording, you do not need to notify nor secure other parties' permission. Additionally, at the federal level, it's been asserted that a policeman, while in public and performing his duties, has no expectation of privacy and can be recorded even if you are not party to their current interaction.

If you are open carrying and a cop approaches you and gives no reason to approach you or suspect you of a crime, other than the open carrying of a firearm, you do not need to provide ID upon request. Unless of course you are a CHL holder carrying in a motor vehicle.

Pete Eyre's open carry stop in Santa Fe, New Mexico is an excellent example of how to conduct yourself at an open carry stop if you choose to exercise all of your rights:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8bc_1310260736" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The most important thing is to not let them goad you too far off topic. If you ask if you are free to go and they say no, inquire on what grounds they are detaining you. No, being armed doesn't mean they have to check if you are a felon. No, being armed doesn't mean they have to check to see if the firearm is loaded/yours/stolen. If you are strictly open carrying, being armed isn't even reason enough to check if you have a CHL.

You can resist their questions without being combative or provocative and I would suggest doing NOTHING that could paint you as the guilty party should they choose to escalate the situation. It's hard to remain calm, but doing so is not only beneficial, but empowering. Don't raise your voice, etc.

Audio recording is good. Better still is video recording. You might have to give up "stealth recording" but sometimes a visible camera is incentive enough for them to not cross the line. Obviously some will view it as antagonization, which it is not. The Supreme Court has said as much and their ruling did NOT apply to journalists only or anything like that.

There are apps if you have a smartphone that allow everything you record to be streamed and/or stored online as its recording. This can be helpful if you get one of the really bad ones that will not only snatch your recording device, but try to destroy your recording.

[soldier24]

You are so awesome !!!! thank you so much for that information. Is there any links to a paper document I can print of that so I can carry it as well.

[DontTreadOnMe]

I was told if I was walking down the street open carrying a weapon( or not ) and a police officer randomly comes up to me and asks for on I.D. , by law I dont have to give it to him?

You don't have to give ID (unless you have a CHL but in that case you have to notify too). You may have to give your name, address and date of birth.

also I dont even have to stop and talk to him because I have not committed a crime for him to even come up to me and stop me ?

That is true IF the officer does not have reasonable suspicion that you have, are in the process of, or are about to commit a crime, or witnessed a felony. The law doesn't require the officer to tell you whether or not that's the case. Failure to provide that information when an officer does have that reasonable suspicion is a 4th degree misdemeanor.

refuse to let him harass me about open carring as he does a "background" on me and my fire arm?

If an officer has reasonable cause to stop you, the officer can do a safety patdown and temporarily take custody of your firearm for officer safety. If this happens, you should be clear to the officer you aren't consenting to any search of yourself or your property. Don't physically resist, but stay calm and polite and make the statement. You can't stop him if he decides to pull the s/n off the gun and run it anyway, but if you fail to make that statement the search is more likely to be considered lawful.

[soldier24]

I understand. I have nothing to hide on my record or what weapon I carry. I just dont like the fact cops in that area and almost to the point of drawing on good civilians because of the fact they are just going grocery shopping or going to a gas station for a drink OCing.

[evan price]

Welcome to the sharp end of the political activism process.

You can either choose to do something that the police have no right to ask, or you can refuse, let them arrest you, and fight it in court. That's the only way new legislation or clarification of existing laws can ever happen, in court. It doesn't matter if what they do is illegal- until a judge tells them to cease and desist they will just keep doing it.

It's great to know the law, be able to cite chapter and verse of the Ohio Revised Code and the US Constitution and even know your case law and precedents. Does not matter- one little bit- on the street.

My *only* beef with people who want to make a statement by OCing is that in the end there is no follow through. If you are going to be a political activist you have to draw that line in the sand and go no farther. Police are trained to get you to agree with them, to use conversational tactics to get you to go along with their will. Who wants to really go to jail and be booked? But when the choices are "Leave me alone" or "Arrest me" ... it short circuits the process- and you have to stand by your moral position.

It sucks that we have to go to this length to get back our rights but unfortunately this is the way the system works.

So you need to ask yourself- do you want an arrest on your record- even if it is overturned and you are found to be in the right? Can you afford the time and monetary and emotional expenses that the process will demand from you?


Edit to add: I notice from your sig line you have a CIB and served in infantry. Thank you for your service. Sincerely. You've been on the sharp edge of the sword already, and it is a travesty that you or anyone needs to do it again in country.

[soldier24]

I don't have the time or money and I am not wanting to be arrested to make a point lol. Also I don't want to make the rest of the OC'ers look bad and give anyone a bad name. I would like to know the laws and whats legal and is not. I find it hard very aggravating though how some area's don't mind if people OC and then the other area's cops are "out to get you" but like I said I have no issues letting cops run my I.D., but I do not want be pushed around and treated like a criminal at the same time.

and I appreciate all the info already.

Evan price thank you for the support

[evan price]

I don't have the time or money and I am not wanting to be arrested to make a point lol. Also I don't want to make the rest of the OC'ers look bad and give anyone a bad name. I would like to know the laws and whats legal and is not. I find it hard very aggravating though how some area's don't mind if people OC and then the other area's cops are "out to get you" but like I said I have no issues letting cops run my I.D., but I do not want be pushed around and treated like a criminal at the same time.

and I appreciate all the info already.

Evan price thank you for the support

The law is that in Ohio, Open Carry is completely legal. The criminal charge is "Carrying a concealed weapon" (ORC 2923.12)which is only applicable if a gun is concealed...there is no law against the un-concealed carry of a gun, and 'everything which is not forbidden is allowed'.

Police may stop and detain you and demand ID in what is called a "Terry Stop" (Terry V Ohio, 1968) if they believe they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, is about to be, or is in the process of being committed. During this time they will demand ID, and may frisk you for officer safety (to locate any weapons).

Since the open carry of a firearm is in itself not an illegal act, strict interpretation of the law is that there is no grounds for a Terry stop if the officer's only reason for the detention is that he sees you OCing a firearm (and one may add, in a responsible way, such as slung long guns, or holstered pistols). Thus, no legal justification for a stop & identify under Terry V Ohio.

However- as you know- there are certain police officers who will not follow Terry to the legal letter and believe they have the right to stop and demand ID for whatever reason- or lack thereof- they may decide is applicable.

The only way to stop this illegal behavior is by working up through the chain of command and ultimately to the courts.

Arguing with an officer on the street will usually prove to have little result. The best possible outcome when faced with an aggressive officer would be that another officer who is familiar with the law- such as a supervisor- becomes involved and corrects the situation. Upon termination of the interaction one would then take grievances to the officer's superiors. Failing that having a successful outcome, one may go all the way to the chief of police, etc. and then to the mayor or other political leader over the police chief.

Failing that having any change in the officer on the street, the only outcome would be to seek redress through the courts. And the only way to do that would be to gain stature. This is usually done by being arrested. It is important to have your ducks in a row BEFORE beginning such actions, to arrange for video and/or audio taping of the interaction so that it is not the officers' words against yours. Typically the courts won't view a brief detention as unreasonable- even restrained- because they have incredible leeway if they can make an officer safety argument. A wrongful arrest is something more. There are many charges that are levied at OCers, such as "Inducing Panic" (which has been discussed at length on the forums here, search for that) which is a false charge.

Throughout any such interactions with police it is necessary to remain polite and if you choose to speak, say only the minimum but 100% truth at all times, and try not to dazzle them with lawyer-speak and cow fertilizer.

[whoownsyou]

Almost forgot: open carry with others if possible, especially if they too have recording capabilities. This won't be a security blanket, but will stack the odds in your favor that an encounter won't be escalated by the police.

It sucks that we have to go to this length to get back our rights but unfortunately this is the way the system works.

Proof that the system is broken and NOT to be viewed as an avenue to seek shelter from it. I only clarify because you mentioned sharp activism as if OC or refusing ID/search is in fact the sharp end of activism.

[Cynyster]

You might also want to be aware that demanding to see ID can be a defensive tact so that the Officer can exert some sort of authority in the situation.
If they can get you to comply with something simple they might feel more comfortable demanding other things.

[BobK]

Please note that there is a difference between identifying oneself by telling them your name, dob, and address versus showing identification.

If asked to identify myself, I would always comply. I have no way of knowing if there is a BOLO out there for a fat, middle-aged white guy with gray hair. Even if I have done nothing wrong, if they can reasonably suspect me of a crime, then I could be charged with refusing to identify myself.

The only time I have to show identification is when I am driving a vehicle or carrying concealed.

[Cynyster]

Please note that there is a difference between identifying oneself by telling them your name, dob, and address versus showing identification.

If asked to identify myself, I would always comply. I have no way of knowing if there is a BOLO out there for a fat, middle-aged white guy with gray hair. Even if I have done nothing wrong, if they can reasonably suspect me of a crime, then I could be charged with refusing to identify myself.

The only time I have to show identification is when I am driving a vehicle or carrying concealed.

A question comes to mind.
When identifying ones-self. Are you required to give your full name... your exact address?

Could you just say? I am Bob from Cooperstown and I am 92 so mind your P's and Q's young whipper-snapper

[techguy85]

(A) No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the person’s name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:
...
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;